Bryce-o-rama
True Classic
When you say it like that, it sounds like a delightful way to launder money.
Rally X1/9 - Prototipo style
- Thread starter Marti80
- Start date
rachaeljf
True Classic
Thank you, I looked at them but they almost seemed too good to be true. I am looking to build a 1.9 version of the 16V and yes, the 182 engines are unobtanium in the UK. Best of luck in your endeavours by the way!
Marti80
Daily Driver
Just buy the 1.9 to start with? 310 A3
Marti80
Daily Driver
What do you have planned for yours?
rachaeljf
True Classic
Just a tinkering hobby for me really. I'm trying to get my Dallara lookalike finished, and I thought a 1.9 turbo might be interesting. As for a 310.A3 engine, Spain would be feasible for a 182 but getting an engine from Brazil seems a bit of a stretch. I have a 78.4 crank and some 87mm low compression Wossner pistons to hand for a home build, if I have the strength left.
NigelProdrive
True Classic
Need to be firmly planted to brake.
My Montecarlo I relocated the fuel weight, pump, filters, regulator via a fuel cell in the front luggage compartment. Could do that while rallysprinting and then if you stage rally and wanna have a spare then rethink.
What diameter wheels again?
Steve Thomas
True Classic
They did - when the manufacturers had a free hand, they built coupes purely for rally.
Marti80
Daily Driver
I am intending foam filled fuel tank in the front or a fuel cell if I can get one the right size. I was even considering the oil tank for dry sump in the front but I need to see whether that's practical or not
Brakes are going to be 256mm disks so I can run 13" wheels and use Brembo 4 pot alloy calipers up front, rear will be the same size disks but I will use calipers with a handbrake mechanism but much larger piston and able to take the vented disks - there are several from modern manufacturers around.
From a performance point of view I am confident that I can build the brakes to withstand any punishment I could throw at them, with a good choice of pads and air ducting they will be fine. It's more about being able to plant it confidently and getting the feel. Weight transfer under braking and getting dead weight over the front wheels. It's the main area of disadvantage over front engine layout
Tyre size wise I am thinking 225 up front and 235 or 245 at the rear. Several manufacturers supply competition tyres now in these sizes which are probably servicing all the historic Escorts
Marti80
Daily Driver
I am contemplating gearboxes and would love input
I ultimately want a straight cut set but am finding the costs (6 - 10k) a little difficult to justify before it's turned a wheel so I am looking at a comprise to start with.
I read a bit about the 510 box, then others using Uno Turbo internals and other 130TC boxes or internals.
My requirements are close ratio gearset, will handle power (although not expecting it to be in excessive of 160 lb/ftorque as only 1600cc), bolts straight on uses standard drive shafts and would prefer original shifting mechanism.
I think I read about someone adapting a 130TC ZF set to fit an X19 casing but maybe I dreamt that up lol
Input very much appreciated
I ultimately want a straight cut set but am finding the costs (6 - 10k) a little difficult to justify before it's turned a wheel so I am looking at a comprise to start with.
I read a bit about the 510 box, then others using Uno Turbo internals and other 130TC boxes or internals.
My requirements are close ratio gearset, will handle power (although not expecting it to be in excessive of 160 lb/ftorque as only 1600cc), bolts straight on uses standard drive shafts and would prefer original shifting mechanism.
I think I read about someone adapting a 130TC ZF set to fit an X19 casing but maybe I dreamt that up lol
Input very much appreciated
speedy fiat
True Classic
Guy croft (he passed away a few years ago) was a bit of a guru on twin cam engines, as well as other Fiat/Lancia competition preparation. He didn't rate the 130tc gearbox as being much stronger than any other Fiat box. Although he rates Colloti gearboxes I know somebody who has the straight cut Colloti box for a X1/9 and he has had numerous issues with it. He suggested that it was that it was a designed for the early four speed box with the five speed conversion, not the factory five speed- some subtle differences apparently - so needed a lot of fettling to fit. He also said that the customer service was very poor.I am contemplating gearboxes and would love input
I ultimately want a straight cut set but am finding the costs (6 - 10k) a little difficult to justify before it's turned a wheel so I am looking at a comprise to start with.
I read a bit about the 510 box, then others using Uno Turbo internals and other 130TC boxes or internals.
My requirements are close ratio gearset, will handle power (although not expecting it to be in excessive of 160 lb/ftorque as only 1600cc), bolts straight on uses standard drive shafts and would prefer original shifting mechanism.
I think I read about someone adapting a 130TC ZF set to fit an X19 casing but maybe I dreamt that up lol
Input very much appreciated
Marti80
Daily Driver
Thanks, Colloti gear are also extremely expensive. The 130TC box is close ratio and made by ZF so I would have hoped it was stronger.
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
Is it? If you check the FIA homologation paperwork for a Ritmo 130TC it says nothing about ZF transmissions, and the Ritmo 130TC has identical gear ratios to the standard Ritmo 125 ... only the differential ratio is different. I think the whole ZF transmission thing is an internet myth.
SteveC
Ulix
True Classic
I just removed mine last weekend after running it for 20 years.
With race tires on a race track, the force to just hold the wheel in steady state turning was making my elbows hurt. Maybe the driver is getting old.
I found it great for autocross and catching a sliding rearend quickly, but no real advantage on the street or road race track.
Marti80
Daily Driver
Apparently the later year gearboxes have ZF stamped on the casing top left area. I have seen a picture of one but I should really check my Abarth first hand which is a late production model
Marti80
Daily Driver
If you really liked it but just found it heavy you could have gone down the electric assist route.I just removed mine last weekend after running it for 20 years.
With race tires on a race track, the force to just hold the wheel in steady state turning was making my elbows hurt. Maybe the driver is getting old.
I found it great for autocross and catching a sliding rearend quickly, but no real advantage on the street or road race track.
If the race tyres are very high grip or very wide I would expect even the standard rack to load up
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
You know there is a rack from another common Fiat model (well common in the UK and in the 1990's) that is 2.75 turns lock to lock... and considerably cheaper than the Quaife rack/pinion units. I bought a LHD one for my lemons build (converted to LHD for better weight distribution) and it was about 75 euro for a complete NOS rack... but I 'spose you have the Quaife one so you might as well use it..
Back when I was an apprentice, I was sent on a training day on how to rebuild the Regata 100 transmissions. The sample trans they had us training on had some alloy castings with ABARTH cast in... but the internals just looked stock to me. I'm sure that close ratio sets were available, and the Ritmo 105 homologation documents show "Alternate" close ratio gearset for group A (basically 1st gear ratio was like the regular second gear) but that's not how they were on the showroom floor... remeber there were several "one make" racing series in Europe based around the Ritmo and then Uno platforms, so back in the day gearsets (and beefier shifter forks) were relatively easy to procure... not so much these days.
160lb/ft of torque... 1600cc is only 98 CID, and 160lb/ft is 1.65lb/ft per cubic inch ... not too likely ... 1.3 lb/ft per cubic inch would be more realistic.
(for comparison the most powerful factory 2 litre K20 with a 90mm stroke is 159 lb/ft, from 122CID, which is 1.30lb/ft per CID)
if you want more torque maybe you should have gone for the small bore/long stroke variant of the type 182 , just like Fiat did in the S1600 rally versions
SteveC
Marti80
Daily Driver
I expect the ease of driving came down to snap oversteer and unpredictability. The Stratos has a squarer wheelbase and much more rearward weight distribution than the Prototipo as that Ferrari engine is a big unit. That big unit also has a lot more weight higher up so centre of gravity is not as good on the Stratos. It does make the Stratos very easy to change direction but not 'easy' to drive.
I will be finding out what the weight distribution will be for the Prototipo build
I will be finding out what the weight distribution will be for the Prototipo build
Marti80
Daily Driver
It wouldn't make much sense for the manufacturer to stamp all the gearboxes with ZF if they didn't have ZF gears. I would certainly believe the story if I can corroborate it myself.
I have settled on building a close ratio box out of available Fiat parts. I think it should be strong enough for my needs and the difference in power losses I will have to live with.
From what I understand the ideal parts would be Regata 100s gears with the X19 final drive.
I am going to look at intake design for torque, i have a few tricks when it comes to tuning. Hopefully that can maximise the torque.