The Rat's Nest - 81 X1/9 Build

[Clatter]

Yesterday we had at it...
Kid wants to sleep in; Late start!
We had maybe 4 1/2 good hours before it got dark on us.

Yummy lollipop!
Make no mistake.. This car is SO messy.
Every nut/bolt/stud is crusty with rat muck.
Takes tools to walk everything clear apart. Nothing turns by hand.

[rant]
Back in the day when i was young, there was such distain for Fiats i never understood.
They were SO hated by mechanics i knew.
I always wrote it off as them being redneck Chevy/Ford types or lowbrow or..?
Now I'm getting it.
There wasn't serviceability engineering of any kind at Fiat back then, huh?
Stuff is just maddening, and for no reason.
Now, i get that it's a tight compartment, and we've worked in tight compartments.
Sure, this engine was designed for FWD...
But so many things are hard for stupid reasons.
Why use so many different size wrenches on hose clamps? 5.5mm?
I have four sets of 1/4" drive sockets and no 5.5.
The ignition module is wired through a grommet, but the connector is too big to fit thru that grommet.
Why not have a slot instead of a hole so the wire can come out!?!
Almost every single electrical connection to a sensor is different.
It might be a spade, but they'll hide it under a different boot every time.
Took me like an hour to pull the alternator.
And those lower coolant reservoir nuts...
It's no wonder Fiat failed in the USA.
Eventually enough of them needed work that it just became herculean.
Must... Not... Rant... I knew what i was getting into here.
[/rant]

Eventually, we got the top of the motor stripped down.
I know it doesn't have to come this far down, but we're coming clear apart.
And we don't have a hoist, so...

Pulling manifolds was concerning. Some kind of damp gel mold/fungus.
Scared to pull that head (if i can! ).
Now wondering what the inside of the transaxle case looks like...

Warms my heart to see the boy getting so much done on his own.
We were getting close, but the light was starting to go away.

Right at the end, with only mounts left, we packed it in.
Best to be doing a sketchy pull with good light and a fresh head.

Here's hoping we can get a motor out and open today.
And it isn't just one seized block of rust inside...

 

[MikeHynes]

Curious, have you been able to de-stench the car? If so - how did you do it?

 

[Clatter]

Curious, have you been able to de-stench the car? If so - how did you do it?

A good question.
So far we haven’t.
Only after we know that this whole project isn’t pure folly.
Once the engine and gearbox come apart, and we know we’re going to actually do this, will we dive into decontamination.
Still reserving the right to just chisel off the VIN, tow it to a side street, leave it on the curb, and cut our losses…

-If- the engine and trans don’t need a lot of money.
The plan is to strip the interior.

This car is still almost 100% original.
It only had one owner before us.
-If- (that’s “if” with a capital “I”.. )
If we can clean up the original interior we would prefer to do so.

The 1-piece factory molded carpet is a period brown color and seems in decent shape.
We plan on pulling it out and taking it to the coin-op car wash.
They have those clips on the wall where you can hang floor mats, so with hot soapy water and a vertical orientation I’m holding out hope we can de-stankify the nastiness without destroying the carpet.

The seat covers will come off and get a similar treatment, followed perhaps with some Woolite on a gentle cycle when Mom’s away at work?

The foam underneath might need replacing.
Maybe we can just buy foam and trim it?

Dash might get pulled as well.

Perhaps this stuff will help?
It’s a product they use at those pet potty areas you see at the airport nowadays.
Got to talk to the guy there and he pointed me here:

Otherwise, I’m all ears as to how anyone might have handled this issue.

We could get some seat covers and one of those black multi-piece aftermarket carpets,
But the OG interior stuff is so 1981 I’d hate to lose it.

But mostly..
Most of all(!)
We do NOT have a lot of money to throw at this project.
I’ve spent way too much money on car projects,
Times are tight,
I promised her i would cut back on my car habit… Not spend every dollar.. Live a more normal life…
And i really really want to stay married.

 

[MikeHynes]

The super enzyme product sounds like a good candidate.
I have a barn find car that had similar levels of mouse poo in the interior. I took the carpet out and treated it with a similar product, then pressure washed it, brushed in detergent, pressure washed again, then let it sit outside in the rain and sun for a month. The smell was better, but not gone. I've got it airing out now - for about 4 months. I see products on TV that are advertised to remove the smell - Poof is one example. I also see products that almost fumigate the interior, sold by some detailing products companies. My plan is to try one of those products if the smell is still there, and am hoping to find someone who had good results with one.
Good luck with your car, I hope the rats didn't like eating electrical wires!

 

[SuperTopo]

And i really really want to stay married.

It's cheaper to keep her...

 

[beezee]

If you find the engine is in bad condition, don't give up. A solid rust free X1/9 body is a rare thing, but compared to the body, spare engines and transmissions are relatively easy to come by.

 

[johnph]

Yesterday we had at it...
Kid wants to sleep in; Late start!
We had maybe 4 1/2 good hours before it got dark on us.

View attachment 79778

Yummy lollipop!
Make no mistake.. This car is SO messy.
Every nut/bolt/stud is crusty with rat muck.
Takes tools to walk everything clear apart. Nothing turns by hand.
View attachment 79779

[rant]
Back in the day when i was young, there was such distain for Fiats i never understood.
They were SO hated by mechanics i knew.
I always wrote it off as them being redneck Chevy/Ford types or lowbrow or..?
Now I'm getting it.
There wasn't serviceability engineering of any kind at Fiat back then, huh?
Stuff is just maddening, and for no reason.
Now, i get that it's a tight compartment, and we've worked in tight compartments.
Sure, this engine was designed for FWD...
But so many things are hard for stupid reasons.
Why use so many different size wrenches on hose clamps? 5.5mm?
I have four sets of 1/4" drive sockets and no 5.5.
The ignition module is wired through a grommet, but the connector is too big to fit thru that grommet.
Why not have a slot instead of a hole so the wire can come out!?!
Almost every single electrical connection to a sensor is different.
It might be a spade, but they'll hide it under a different boot every time.
Took me like an hour to pull the alternator.
And those lower coolant reservoir nuts...
It's no wonder Fiat failed in the USA.
Eventually enough of them needed work that it just became herculean.
Must... Not... Rant... I knew what i was getting into here.
[/rant]

Eventually, we got the top of the motor stripped down.
I know it doesn't have to come this far down, but we're coming clear apart.
And we don't have a hoist, so...
View attachment 79780


Pulling manifolds was concerning. Some kind of damp gel mold/fungus.
Scared to pull that head (if i can! ).
Now wondering what the inside of the transaxle case looks like...
View attachment 79781


Warms my heart to see the boy getting so much done on his own.
We were getting close, but the light was starting to go away.
View attachment 79782


Right at the end, with only mounts left, we packed it in.
Best to be doing a sketchy pull with good light and a fresh head.
View attachment 79783

Here's hoping we can get a motor out and open today.
And it isn't just one seized block of rust inside...

Those are diamond crystals forming in your head ports. Get some PB blaster (rust penetrant) and soak the rear side head bolts/studs.

 

[JKIDD]

"There wasn't serviceability engineering of any kind at Fiat back then, huh?
Stuff is just maddening, and for no reason."

Things didn't get much better... Ever changed the oil in a 500 Abarth?

 

[subasurf]

Try doing a cambelt and waterpump change on a FWD V6 Alfa Romeo

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Now I'm getting it.
There wasn't serviceability engineering of any kind at Fiat back then, huh?
Stuff is just maddening, and for no reason.

I agree.

Scared to pull that head (if i can! ).

There is a tendency for the head to become frozen onto the block. Particularly for the head studs, but the bolts can get stuck as well and snap off. As @johnph said, soak them with penetrant for a couple of days, and apply heat. But you may need a "head puller tool"....a special item just for these engines. Several guys here have made their own tool, perhaps someone has one to loan.

Pulling manifolds was concerning. Some kind of damp gel mold/fungus.

That does look pretty bad overall. If the rest of the engine and trans are as bad then consider two options:

1) As @beezee said there are plenty of spare engines and trans around. Although I consider any (every) used Fiat engine (including the one already in the car) as a core needing rebuilding, it will be less costly to rebuild one that doesn't have major damage. So finding a better one to start with may be worth it.

2) These cars are excellent candidates for a powertrain swap. I know you are on a tight budget and swaps can get costly. But there are some more affordable options possible.

 

[tvmaster]

A good question.
So far we haven’t.
Only after we know that this whole project isn’t pure folly.
Once the engine and gearbox come apart, and we know we’re going to actually do this, will we dive into decontamination.
Still reserving the right to just chisel off the VIN, tow it to a side street, leave it on the curb, and cut our losses…

-If- the engine and trans don’t need a lot of money.
The plan is to strip the interior.

This car is still almost 100% original.
It only had one owner before us.
-If- (that’s “if” with a capital “I”.. )
If we can clean up the original interior we would prefer to do so.

The 1-piece factory molded carpet is a period brown color and seems in decent shape.
We plan on pulling it out and taking it to the coin-op car wash.
They have those clips on the wall where you can hang floor mats, so with hot soapy water and a vertical orientation I’m holding out hope we can de-stankify the nastiness without destroying the carpet.

The seat covers will come off and get a similar treatment, followed perhaps with some Woolite on a gentle cycle when Mom’s away at work?

The foam underneath might need replacing.
Maybe we can just buy foam and trim it?

Dash might get pulled as well.

Perhaps this stuff will help?
It’s a product they use at those pet potty areas you see at the airport nowadays.
Got to talk to the guy there and he pointed me here:
View attachment 79785

Otherwise, I’m all ears as to how anyone might have handled this issue.

We could get some seat covers and one of those black multi-piece aftermarket carpets,
But the OG interior stuff is so 1981 I’d hate to lose it.

But mostly..
Most of all(!)
We do NOT have a lot of money to throw at this project.
I’ve spent way too much money on car projects,
Times are tight,
I promised her i would cut back on my car habit… Not spend every dollar.. Live a more normal life…
And i really really want to stay married.

In case you can't get the stink out: https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/pts/d/acton-fiat-1-seats/7696049753.html

 

[Clatter]

Thanks for the input, gentlemen,
You're taking the time is much appreciated.

Yesterday was a cold/wet one,
But victorious!

Sliding that thing out along those 1bys was hokey to be sure,
But we don't have a lift, and the stands only go so high before they get sketchy.
Already thinking of how much better the future install will be,
And walking a bit funny today... For some reason...

Car surely had a clutch or two with 170K on the clock.
Disc has decent material and flywheel and shoe aren't scored.
Hopefully we can re-use them.
Can't help but think they left off a piece.
Wasn't there a steel plate covering the flywheel teeth?
This one had the flywheel showing underneath like with a flexplate on an old Chevy automatic.
What do you know, the rats packed it full too!

Opening up the bottom, there was one rod cap missing.
Not sure why.
Journals aren't the best, but not a reason the pull a cap that i can find yet.

Ugh, what a mess...
And to think this driveway had yet to be anointed.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Opening up the bottom, there was one rod cap missing.

Found it....

"finding a rod cap in the 'extra parts box'"

 

[Clatter]

A trick i learned while working at a gas station in my youth;
Powdered laundry detergent wet scrubbed with a stiff push-broom.
We tracked oil everywhere, making colorful blooms on the wet concrete clear around the house.

Going to be another pressure-washing session for the compartment here.
Might pull the gas tank and radiator first.
Planning on removing all of the rat-chewed insulation.
Most of the wiring was left alone by them, except for the O2 sensor wire.
For some reason they found it especially delicious.

Something else we discovered was that following the DPO tire sizes was folly.
175/70s rub very badly.
Pushing the car empty with no fluids and it binds to a stop at lock.
Hopefully the tire shop will swap me for a smaller size months later.
The brand is LingLong!
Any of you guys familiar with Ministry?
Jesus Built My Hot Rod!
So there was only one thing i could do...

Looking some more at other stuff, there was a tag on a front brake hose.
Must have been replaced!
Not sure that really means i can run 'em if it was over 15 years ago.

Look where they came from too.
Welcome to Santa Cruz!

And, yep, head was stuck on...
No studs, all bolts this one.
Not sure if that's correct for an '81?
One of the bolts broke, so a head puller tool will be needed.
Talked to Mr. Obert and he says to drizzle some Coca Cola down the hole with the broken stud.
He also says he has the special tool to use next week.

My Italian friend Maurizio says that in Italy they were taught to use a 'Martello' to remove the SOHC head.
A.k.a. 5kg sledgehammer...

Dropped off the crank for a polish at Shroeder's down in Seaside this morning.
Robert there said the crank should probably be ground, but that means sent out to LA with another $250 and two weeks.
Last crank i had done by Ed's in Newark came back a thou over and a rough finish.
I still had to take it to Robert for a polish and to get the size right.
Usually, he'll do a dynamic balance.
Balance a rat-crusted corroded flywheel and pressure plate? I think not.
I talked him into just polishing it.
It'll be fine for a stock motor that a kid drives to school, right?

Also this... Not sure this tank will fly.
I know they have those really nice steel tanks for big $$$.
Maybe someone has one that's still semi-usable they would part with?
Promise not to run the car on the freeway!

Right as it's getting dark, we have the motor ready to load up and take to get the head pulled,
Tires cleaned up to go beg the tire guys,
Rear arms ready to go back in (to make the car a roller again),
And the pad all cleaned up.
Mission accomplished.

Also included a Volvo in the picture... Extra XWeb points for Volvo, right?

 

[Clatter]

Found it....

"finding a rod cap in the 'extra parts box'"

I know, right?
Why pull the oil pan and then one rod cap?

Smell tells me this motor got good n' hot.
A couple of rod journals have bearing smearage -just- catchable with a fingernail.
Also, once we had the cam belt off and the plugs out, the motor turned free like all of the rods were uncapped.
Guessing 170K were hard miles, with more evidence of overheating,
There is zero ring drag on the bores.

My inner redneck wants to do a ridge ream, dingle-ball hone and re-ring.
Seems like the cheapest piston and ring set is $250.
Plus machine work,
That's more than i paid for the car!

Also, a reminder to take the radiator in, plus carefully inspect the fan, t-stat and water pump...
Make sure intake's not sucking air, injectors not plugged, exhaust not leaking at the head, timing right...
Ugh.
It got hot for a reason,
But what's that reason?

 

[dllubin]

Regarding the tire size, 165-70/13s were fitted to later models so they should fit without rubbing. Back in the 70s, I put 185-70/13s on mine (no 60 series yet) and it required some minimal adjustments so you probably could make the 175s work. I had to fold up the lips in the wheel wells front and back, and folded in the lower front wheel wells a little so the tires could be turned lock to lock.

 

[dllubin]

Stoked you guys are following along.
Know that I've been reading all the threads on this forum for over a year and followed most of the recent builds.
I think we might have seen a couple of you at Concorso Italiano?

Redwoods can make for some great vintage car preservation.
Here we're in Santa Cruz, the southern edge of redwoods,
Not really Northern California, but not central CA either...
So, it's relatively warm/dry for the redwood forest.
For those not familiar, the redwoods drop tons of needles and twigs.
Unlike pines, their needles are in clumps, attached to each other in a sort of compound arrangement.
The twigs and needles pile up to offer protection from sunlight but drain very well.
Their branches usually aren't big relative to their size, so they don't fall and damage cars so much.
The root systems are extensive and provide good drainage.
When a car gets left out, if it's under a redwood (and in the redwoods, everything is under a redwood) it's remarkably well preserved.
I've lived in CO and AZ, and in CO the roads get salted and in AZ the sun kills paint and rubber/plastic.
Many coastal redwood areas get salt spray or a lot of rain,
But here at the Southern edge, it's a great place to get an old car.

Sounds like you have a much more friendly redwood forest than I do. My forest is on the ridge line along Skyline Boulevard and the winds get strong enough to knock down the big branches. The redwood tree tops are somewhat vulnerable to getting blown off and when they come down they can be hundreds of pounds. I had a near miss a few years ago when a top came sailing in from a tree close to 100' away and fortunately hit a Mediteranean Spruce before coming to a stop. That was about 4' from my house so only the soft branches made contact. The spruce had it's main trunk completely torn off.

We had a house in Santa Cruz a few years back near Seabright Beach so no redwoods there.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I know, right?
Why pull the oil pan and then one rod cap?

Smell tells me this motor got good n' hot.
A couple of rod journals have bearing smearage -just- catchable with a fingernail.
Also, once we had the cam belt off and the plugs out, the motor turned free like all of the rods were uncapped.
Guessing 170K were hard miles, with more evidence of overheating,
There is zero ring drag on the bores.

My inner redneck wants to do a ridge ream, dingle-ball and re-ring.
Seems like the cheapest piston and ring set is $250.
Plus machine work,
That's more than i paid for the car!

Also, a reminder to take the radiator in, plus carefully inspect the fan, t-stat and water pump...
Make sure intake's not sucking air, injectors not plugged, exhaust not leaking at the head, timing right...
Ugh.
It got hot for a reason,
But what's that reason?

Take some measurements of the cylinders, journals, head surfaces, etc. There is a free copy of the factory workshop manual in the "Wiki" section of Xweb (see link below). It has all of the tolerances for wear that you can compare your numbers with. If things are still close to being within the limits of wear then a crank polish and cylinder hone should be fine with new bearings and rings. Also new seals and gaskets. Inspect and leak test the valves, hopefully some lapping is all they need. If it overheated then make sure the head is still flat; they can have a tendency to blow head gaskets if not.

The cooling system on the X is a long debated issue on the forum. Some insist it is the best design ever created and functions amazing under the worst of conditions. I'm not one of those people. I believe it is a rather poor design and fraught with issues...especially with the years of abuse and neglect they get. In addition to checking the radiator, water pump, fans, sensors, thermostat, etc, also carefully check / test the long coolant pipes that run under the car. They rot and leak.

Workshop manual can be found here:

WorkshopManuals - X1/9 Wiki

xwebforums.com

 

[Tom Ginefra]

Something else we discovered was that following the DPO tire sizes was folly.
175/70s rub very badly.

I am running 185/60 R13s. Nice and wide and NO rubbing. If you can find'em... this is the way I would go.

 

[tvmaster]

175/70 R13 here. Some people don’t like that size. They seem to ride nicely enough though…