The Rat's Nest - 81 X1/9 Build

[Dr.Jeff]

It might be better to find oversized pistons first then have the block bored/honed to match them.

I'm also a huge VW fan. I haven't looked into this to verify it, but there was a engineering guy in Sweden that said he found some VW pistons for his X1/9 (SOHC) engine. I know there are some nice aftermarket performance VW connecting rods that will fit the engine, so maybe pistons can also?? In his case he was building the X engine for boost and wanted turbo spec pistons. For the SOHC you can get them custom from the aftermarket but they are quite pricey. Which is why he went with VW items....as you say the price difference between VW and Fiat parts is enormous. However I don't have any specific details on what VW pistons he used. Maybe something to research while you are recuperating. And speaking of which....let your body heal, it takes time and trying to rush it makes things worse.

 

[Clatter]

It might be better to find oversized pistons first then have the block bored/honed to match them.

I'm also a huge VW fan. I haven't looked into this to verify it, but there was a engineering guy in Sweden that said he found some VW pistons for his X1/9 (SOHC) engine. I know there are some nice aftermarket performance VW connecting rods that will fit the engine, so maybe pistons can also?? In his case he was building the X engine for boost and wanted turbo spec pistons. For the SOHC you can get them custom from the aftermarket but they are quite pricey. Which is why he went with VW items....as you say the price difference between VW and Fiat parts is enormous. However I don't have any specific details on what VW pistons he used. Maybe something to research while you are recuperating. And speaking of which....let your body heal, it takes time and trying to rush it makes things worse.

Ohyeah... Will only have my man bore the block once he has the actual pistons in-hand for sure.

I'm so deep into ACVWs it's gotten downright silly.

A good friend works at UEM pistons - Icon/KB/Silvolite/Dualoy - if there was a market, they could start making pistons for our engines.
While the Lampredi SOHC was widespread in the EU, not so much here,
And numbers are declining.

Still, hoping that maybe something will cross-reference enough to use.
I'll be sending him some measurements and you never know,
Maybe they already make something that will work.

Would be great to have an alternative,
Because I'm not seeing much out there in oversize stock pistons.
Is it really that bad?

 

[kmead]

Thanks for the kind words guys, and Merry Christmas Eve.

This does really make me happy, they're finally old enough to be some real help now(!)
Anyone who's tried to push an unwilling little kid into working on things knows it didn't come easy.

So, ever since those first few days I took really sick!
It's not hantavirus.. FWIW, that's only a threat for 4-5 days after rats are active, supposedly.
This thing i got, I'm feeling OK, but totally coughing up a lung.
Then working on stuff i get really run down and back to horizontal again.
My Mom, and their Mom, and the boys both badgered me into going to the clinic yesterday.
Don't want to go to no sissy-ass clinic just to get told i got the flu!
While they stayed and cleaned parts without me...
Needless to say, it took the whole afternoon, and while i don't have pneumonia again it's RSV so not exactly great.
They sent me this pic of cleaned parts on the garage floor to lift my spirits while i waited forever in an overcrowded clinic with a bunch of other sick people
(to get told i got the flu and be sent home).
View attachment 79904

I'm stuck sick in bed and they're out surfing with their buddies without me.

So, i get up and run out to measure some pistons and the block bore,
But then have a coughing fit and get all wheezy and dizzy...
View attachment 79905

See also big/heavy Harbor Freight suction cup dent puller.
Trying to convert it for use as a slide hammer to pull transaxle drive flanges.
The suction cup foot threads on, so if i can anchor a plate...
Had an hour between triage and my appointment, so ran off to ACE to get this big bolt.
Unfortunately, it's some odd size so won't fit without a lot of filing or grinding.

Also while i was gone, my machinist friend stopped over and eyed that bore on the block that got wet.
He also agreed to do the machine work for me!
His initial impression was that it would be good to take it over two sizes, because rust tends to creep more than you would guess.
In USA terms, two sizes over means .020", but here in Fiat world it's .0157" a.k.a. .4mm. Close enough.
Measuring my piston showed standard sizing, and the cylinders worn to a fit of .0035" or .0038" or thereabouts.
Looks like I'll need at least 86.8 or 87mm slugs.

Shopping around, places don't seem to have stock pistons.
MWB only shows Wisecos. Ebay has them for $375 plus shipping from Greece or Australia.
I really have trust issues with ebay, especially internationally.
Gotta love how these sellers from India list their 65mm pistons as "fits X1/9"
In VW world you can get a nice set of pistons -and- cylinders, hypereutectic, graphite coated and all for $166/set(!)

Sssooo... Who's got a set of oversized stock pistons for me?
Thinking the 'small cutout' carb/EU version would work well or even better.
I can run premium and tune carefully.
But,
Yeah,
I'm too poor to be picky.
Any pistons that work would be great.
Not guessing I'll be finding oversized pistons used, but one can hope!

Plenty of time to search - stuck sick in bed for days...

Thanks again for all of the interest, support and info you guys have given.
Really great forum and group here.

SOHC Stock Piston Set, Fiat 1500cc - (SKU 56-63xx) | Vick Autosports

Stock Piston & Ring Set starting at 86.4mm and up to 87.4mm Highest quality cast pistons available. Made by an OE Fiat piston manufacturer. Don’t be fooled by overpriced old technology pistons or knock-off Chinese pistons (none of our pistons are Chinese). Our pistons feature the best options...

www.vickauto.com

 

[Clatter]

SOHC Stock Piston Set, Fiat 1500cc - (SKU 56-63xx) | Vick Autosports

Stock Piston & Ring Set starting at 86.4mm and up to 87.4mm Highest quality cast pistons available. Made by an OE Fiat piston manufacturer. Don’t be fooled by overpriced old technology pistons or knock-off Chinese pistons (none of our pistons are Chinese). Our pistons feature the best options...

www.vickauto.com

Wow! Nice.
$235 with free shipping and no tax.
Vick in Texas!
Perfect.
Much thanks Karl.

 

[Clatter]

Here's another question... While i have you guys' attention... Getting ahead of myself here...

Other cars we would rebuild a master cylinder.
Hone out the bore, put in a kit, easy peasy.
Presumably i have high-quality old parts already here,
And saving money being job #1...

Here I'm hearing different tales of how this goes,
Some say the cheap cylinders are NG, some send OG masters out for sleeving,
Others say the current stuff is fine.

The brake master and clutch master/slave are iron?
If they didn't get water damaged too badly you can hone them out, right?
Why don't i see rebuild kits for sale?

A kit and some honing of the OG Italian parts just seems so right up our alley...
We certainly intend to try this with the wheel cylinders.
What's the catch?

 

[kmead]

Here's another question... While i have you guys' attention... Getting ahead of myself here...

Other cars we would rebuild a master cylinder.
Hone out the bore, put in a kit, easy peasy.
Presumably i have high-quality old parts already here,
And saving money being job #1...

Here I'm hearing different tales of how this goes,
Some say the cheap cylinders are NG, some send OG masters out for sleeving,
Others say the current stuff is fine.

The brake master and clutch master/slave are iron?
If they didn't get water damaged too badly you can hone them out, right?
Why don't i see rebuild kits for sale?

A kit and some honing of the OG Italian parts just seems so right up our alley...
We certainly intend to try this with the wheel cylinders.
What's the catch?

Midwest has the parts. There isn’t much to them.

Master Cylinder / Slave Cylinder 19mm Lipped Seal (Fiat Lancia All) - NEW

Master Cylinder / Slave Cylinder 19mm Lipped Seal (Fiat Lancia All) - NEW

www.midwest-bayless.com

 

[Clatter]

Midwest has the parts. There isn’t much to them.

Master Cylinder / Slave Cylinder 19mm Lipped Seal (Fiat Lancia All) - NEW

Master Cylinder / Slave Cylinder 19mm Lipped Seal (Fiat Lancia All) - NEW

www.midwest-bayless.com

Thanks again my man.

Saw those,
But that’s it?
No o-rings or cup or spring or piston or..?
Those lip seals are the only soft/rubber parts?

Wow.
I have little cylinder hones.
I’m going for it at least for sure.

 

[fiatfactory]

Wow! Nice.
$235 with free shipping and no tax.
Vick in Texas!
Perfect.
Much thanks Karl.

except they are out of stock of the size you want, plus if you look closely at the pic the oil drain backs in the oil control ring groove are a slot, the original pistons have drilled holes... slots are old school and haven't been used in the sohc since the early 70's, so take vics "new technology" blurb with a grain of salt...

as shown in another thread, you have the choice of upping the static CR by a little bit now if you choose a piston with a smaller flycut volume... and you also get a choice of compression heights...

Not all pistons are created equal, and the same goes with piston rings... OE pistons (like Borgo / Mondial / Mahle) would use a chromed steel top ring, not a plain cast iron top ring ....

If you don't want to up the static CR and keep it standard, I have a bunch of original Borgo 86.8 ritmo/x19 1500 piston sets. These are cheaper than the small flycut pistons I list on ebay, as there is less demand for these and if you buy direct there's no ebay fees or state taxes for you, paypal OK



send me a PM if interested.

For the master cylinders, stainless steel sleeving is the best way, but you might find it costs about as much as the new aftermarket cylinders... if the cars been sitting for a long time you could well find severe enough pitting or corrosion of the internal parts that makes honing / rebuilding non-viable. There's a "lip" seal like the one shown , and two plain round 19.05mm seals, plus the two upper nylon bung seals in a full overhaul kit

SteveC

 

[kmead]

Thanks again my man.

Saw those,
But that’s it?
No o-rings or cup or spring or piston or..?
Those lip seals are the only soft/rubber parts?

Wow.
I have little cylinder hones.
I’m going for it at least for sure.

They are 19mm for the masters. It has been a long while since I took one apart, there are the two rounded seals as well: 10 and 19

I agree it is odd there are not kits with all consumables in the one kit.

 

[ng_randolph]

They are 19mm for the masters. It has been a long while since I took one apart, there are the two rounded seals as well: 10 and 19

I agree it is odd there are not kits with all consumables in the one kit.

View attachment 79943

And this is what the guts of my brake master cylinder looked like:

3 D-profile seals that look like Fiat part number 4115451
1 double lipped seal that looks like Fiat part number 792780

 

[fiatrn]

Don't underestimate RSV. It can kill. Just be smart, and don't breath nasty fume chemicals until you are felling better - your lungs don't need to deal with that along with a virus war. The good side - - plenty of time to shop for Fiat parts!

 

[Clatter]

Don't underestimate RSV. It can kill. Just be smart, and don't breath nasty fume chemicals until you are felling better - your lungs don't need to deal with that along with a virus war. The good side - - plenty of time to shop for Fiat parts!

I don't have any money to shop for Fiat parts!

It's really hard to lie still when you have a project... And helpers...!
I was just starting to feel better, and the boys were starting to take ill.
So, what did we do?

 

[Clatter]

It was a banner day out there yesterday.
Moving slowly and got a bit of a late start,
But we pushed through!

Our old friend.
It was one kids' job to feed him, or the other, but then we end up doing it, and he gets fed twice.
Fatdog is one word, not two.

Good experience to deal with the reality of old cars.

One of those horrid unremoveable clamps way up in an inaccessible place?
Like the isht wasn't deep enough already!

Check this out.
Dag Nasty.

Only way to really clean up under the runk was to drill rivets and pull insulation/tin.
Not that we wanted to.
A nice surprise is it being clean underneath.

We have a somewhat unique rust situation going on here.
Rat rust - from the inside out.
You'll notice on the right side i tried a bit of wire-wheeling, and results look promising!

That runk bulkhead would be one of those pieces you'd find on a parts car,
or at the junkyard.
Remember when there were junkyards with several of these to choose from?

Fabing up that long strip will be a big task.

They don't normally rust there, right?
I know there's a parts car somewhere and this piece is perfect... But where?

 

[Clatter]

This s#it's gotta stop!

Is there no end to this sh!t?

The sshit's piling up!
You should see the bottom of that quarter!
I hope there's a drain hole/plug down there somewhere.
If there's not, there will be.

This shiat can't go on forever!

 

[Clatter]

It does feel like we're getting somewhere now.
Gathering my head and making a list.
So far these are the only chewed parts we have found in the engine and runk, thankfully
(touching wood).

Planning on another pressure-wash day as our next move.
Maybe we'll hook up to the hot water heater and use the soap siphon on the washer.
Lots of this black muck seems to be water-soluble.
Getting cavity plugs out and the ability drain everything is key.

The washing should go better with an initial soak, and some scrub-brushing.
After the black muck is mostly gone,
Then the task of cutting all that oil sprayed everywhere will be more straightforward.
It's been hard cleaning both the black muck and the oil, as they cut with different solvents.

How to determine paint code for a match at the paint shop?
VWs have a sticker you just give the paint place. Can't find one here anywhere...!
I'm at least planning on giving the insides of things a coat, maybe with just a brush, depending.

Went back and started getting at least a couple pieces ready for assembly. Just to lift spirits.
Plan over the next couple days is to get the guys on blasting and ultrasonic duty.
Knock out a rock-hard old seal, sand flats on the surface plate.
Next is wire-wheel the fasteners, give the aluminum a glass-beading, and set it in a box for assembly day.
Hope to get a couple boxes of 'ready' parts handy. Makes one think driving the car one day is actually possible...

All in all, it felt like we turned a corner of sorts yesterday.
Got to the very bottom of the runk and compartment.
At least we're not shoveling s#!t anymore!

Tires are loaded in the Volvo to take in for trading.
Block, oil pan, and a bunch of big parts, too.
Strip the head and rods today and then we'll take everything in for tanking.

My list is getting really long and expensive.
Going to hold out on actually running the errands and spending the money until that trans comes apart.
There's still -one- last thing that could sink this project, and it's a biggie.

Lighting a candle, fingering prayer beads, and building a puller to yank axle flanges...

 

[Clatter]

Oh, and the compartment wiring was all wrapped in electrical tape!
I'm all "Look at this, guys, some HACK used f-ing TAPE on the whole damn rear harness"!

But,
Erm,
Maybe those hacks were Italians back in 1981?
Tell me this isn't true..

 

[dllubin]

How to determine paint code for a match at the paint shop?
VWs have a sticker you just give the paint place. Can't find one here anywhere...!
I'm at least planning on giving the insides of things a coat, maybe with just a brush, depending.

The paint code is on the ID plate on the passenger side of the frunk. See page 6 of the factory service manual available in the Wiki section of the site.

It looks like this:

 

[tvmaster]

I don't have any money to shop for Fiat parts!

It's really hard to lie still when you have a project... And helpers...!
I was just starting to feel better, and the boys were starting to take ill.
So, what did we do?



View attachment 79948

How high up off the ground are those jacks - my crappy, cheap Harbor Freight floor jack doesn't go higher than 14"

 

[Clatter]

How high up off the ground are those jacks - my crappy, cheap Harbor Freight floor jack doesn't go higher than 14"

Those are jack stands for big trucks.
Most any FLAPS will have them and they're pretty cheap, considering.

My floor jack wouldn't go high enough to get the engine out,
But used stacked blocks of wood as like cribbing with house movers.
That, and scooting the engine out on thin boards using a strap to lift/tow,
We can make due with a floor jack and no hoist or lift.

 

[Clatter]

The paint code is on the ID plate on the passenger side of the frunk. See page 6 of the factory service manual available in the Wiki section of the site.

It looks like this:

View attachment 79964

Nice! Much thanks.
Sorry to ask dumb questions, but i dig and get frustrated.

Can't tell for sure because the car has had paint work,
But originally these cars were painted in single-stage not base/clear, correct?