ng_randolph
Bjorn H
Curious what this is, a man-size scorpion for an Abarth project?
What did you do to your X1/9 today ?
- Thread starter Eastep
- Start date
speedy fiat
True Classic
I did this conversion, albiet with a MK2 engine, and with 180hp my car is hilariously fast. More than happy to share my experiences. One of the biggest considerations is the engine management system as the original stuff is pretty crude by today's standards, if original it is knocking on 30yrs old and is almost unobtainable new. The basic installment is fairly simple, it's all the other stuff that needs considering which eats up your time and money - clutch, drive shafts, brakes, turbo, air and water plumbing etc, etc
dragonsgate
True Classic
In 1989 when I bought my property there was a small pile of metal on the north end.
Parts of a 1936 Ford, a door off an old International Harvester refrigerator the top off 60's Ford van and some other scraps.
One of the first things we had to do was replace the pipe in the well leaving me with a few hundred feet of rusted pipe.
So after getting my house and shop pretty well built about a year later I decided to clean up the pile of metal.
The 36 what there was of it was rusted beyond any thoughts of restoration.
The fridge door had a nice patina on it and the van top was in pretty good shape.
I hauled the 36 and other scrap to the recycler and my son called dibs on the fridg door.
My son sandblasted some geometric designs on the door and entered it in a local art show and won a $500 purchase prize.
That left me with a bunch of rusted out pipe from the well and the van top.
Couldn't think of anything else to do with it so I made some gates.
Parts of a 1936 Ford, a door off an old International Harvester refrigerator the top off 60's Ford van and some other scraps.
One of the first things we had to do was replace the pipe in the well leaving me with a few hundred feet of rusted pipe.
So after getting my house and shop pretty well built about a year later I decided to clean up the pile of metal.
The 36 what there was of it was rusted beyond any thoughts of restoration.
The fridge door had a nice patina on it and the van top was in pretty good shape.
I hauled the 36 and other scrap to the recycler and my son called dibs on the fridg door.
My son sandblasted some geometric designs on the door and entered it in a local art show and won a $500 purchase prize.
That left me with a bunch of rusted out pipe from the well and the van top.
Couldn't think of anything else to do with it so I made some gates.
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Thanks for sharing. My budget is limited, but the engine/trannyt was rather cheap and this creates room for moremthings. I've come to the same conclusion and I will spread the project in two phases: This winter I will go for a new ECU (MaxxECU), move my sport Cam to the UT engine, purchase a Water to Air IC, make a downpipe and exhaust. Hope this will give me about 140hp on the wheels. - That would be it for summer 2020. Then later on go for new pistons, ported/polished head, turbo upgrade? to ev. reach 200 hp. However, I am worried about the transmission. I have two of them (X1/9) and I believe they won't handle the load. But I am not in the Drag Race business so the future will tell. What are your thoughts about this? Do you run an aftermarket ECU? If so, does all sensor units work or did you replace them?
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Bjorn, I'll let "speedy fiat" answer your questions, as I know he is very experienced with the UT. But I will also add my thoughts about a couple things (my comments are aimed at a street car, not a track car). As I understand it, the UT can be brought up to around 200HP without a lot of expensive modifications, especially if you change to a aftermarket ECU (eliminating the stock AFM, ECU, and ignition control). I've read the boost levels can be brought up to as much as 1 bar with the stock turbo (replace the wastegate actuator and have the ECU control it), the mixture can be richened with larger injectors and reprogrammed map (via the new ECU), and a freer flowing exhaust system will help to support all this. A larger intercooler will also help to control the increased charge temps the higher boost will generate. The stock turbo may be running out of breath by that point but you will get very close to that target (from what I've heard). Your sport cam would be a good upgrade to the UT, and may preclude the need for big valves and porting if you don't try to get too greedy with the power. And the stock pistons should be good for it also. I'm just saying I think you can get what you want and stay within your goal of a limited budget by only doing a select few mods. The UT seems capable of handling a lot in relatively stock form. The X trans may not though, as you say. Did you get a UT trans also? I believe that is a much stronger unit.
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Unfortunately the deal included a X tranny and not the UT tranny, but at least I have one in spare if something brakes. I've found tranny spare parts in EU, even with dog box conversion, but very pricy, and a straight cut dog box would be too noisy on the street. This will still be a car for sunny Sundays and occasionally on the track. There are many different opinions about capability of the engine. Some say that 250 HP is possible (with lots of upgrades) and some say that the engine cannot flow for more than 170 HP no matter of size of turbo etc. I think the truth is something in between. The ECU is essential for this engine to perform, and I will certainly go for an aftermarket unit. However, I am not sure a modern ECU can handle 30 years old legacy sensors, injectors etc. Nobody (this far) told me to change pistons and rods so I will leave them as is at this point.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I've done quite a bit of research on installing a aftermarket ECU on the 1500 with a turbo added (UT turbo on X1/9 engine). It may depend on the specific choice of ECU and it's requirements, but the unit I will use (MegaSquirt) is much easier to set up using different sensors for air temp, coolant temp, and TPS. So I am using very common (and very affordable) sensors from other (USA) vehicles. Plus the addition of a MAP sensor and wideband O2. But all of this was very easy to do. I also had to make a crank trigger wheel mated to the stock front pulley (never had one on a X engine), but I don't see why you couldn't use your stock UT crank and cam sensors.
I think if your goals are 200 HP or beyond, then you may find additional mods will help the UT engine. But up to that shouldn't be a problem. In my case I'm looking for something up to 150 HP, with a maximum of 10 psi boost, on basically stock 1500 internals. But I think the biggest weakness for both of us will be the transmission, not the engine.
MarcusDeli
Low Mileage
They totally changed the look of the car! I can’t wait til I’m out of college and can get the car repainted and the body work done
kmead
Old enough to know better
That explains a lot. Nice use of stuff around. I am trying to not be that old owner leaving stuff all about at my soon to be old house. It’s a lot of work to get rid of stuff.
speedy fiat
True Classic
I've had no problems with the standard gearboxes breaking, even with over double the hp, but the synchros don't last long under competition use. I found the clutch wouldn't cope over 120hp, a Helix 1300 uno turbo comp clutch is a direct fit and will cope with up to 200hp. Standard turbo is out of puff at much more than 130hp as are the injectors. I'm told the standard internals are good for 180ish hp, and so far that opinion stands with me (that assumes a rebuilt engine all up to spec). I run a Maxx ecu and it did need upgraded and extra sensors. If you don't do something similar you can possibly (beer talk mostly!) get impressive engine figures, but not for long. Check the cylinder head as the turbo engine cylinder heads are very very prone to cracking, a non turbo head suitably modified is your best replacement. Standard intercooler is restrictive much above standard and getting sufficient air to it is tricky, I run a PWR cooler with a small front mounted radiator, avoid cheap eBay ones as they usually have terrible air flow. That all takes a good wedge of time and cash and in my opinion if you aren't going for at least 140HP a better option is to tune the standard engine. Standard brakes are okay, but must be in good working order with some decent pads. You should also think about upgrading your suspension and tyres to cope with the extra power.
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Thanks for sharing. I met the guys at Speeding today (main representative for MaxxECU in SE), luckely they are located only 5 mins away. We discussed what ECU to use and it seems like "Race" is worth the extra 2400 SEK. This box will certainly make the engine modern and much easier to tune. The guys at Speeding didn't think that any sensor need to be upgraded as they are all Bosch (from my understanding), but if so, it won't be very costly.
Good to hear that the trans would carry the load. I hope you mean the X 5 Speed tranny or are you referring to UT transmission? Replacing the clutch was expected. The guy that sold the engine/trans offered me a brand new clutch as well but I didn't accept as it was a standard clutch.
I expected the standard IHI turbo and injectors to deliver more than 130hp and my plan was to upgrade these in "phase 2" next winter. This means I will do it now instead. An affordable used turbo from a SAAB or Volvo would be easy to find here, but injectors would be tricky. I've heard that Punto GT injectors (250cc) would fit? Or is even bigger needed? Do I need to modify the manifold to fit a T3 or T4 Turbo?
So you mean that my X 1500 head would be better? What must be modified on it to fit? And it has no Cam sensor.
Good that you mentioned the IC. I was about to order a cheap barrel type IC kit (seems to be best) on Aliexpress.
The other stuff you mentioned will be ok. I have renovated brakes with Green Stuff pads, D2 coilovers has been ordered, and my semi slicks are good.
This will definitely break my budget but will still be cheaper than rebuilding my 1500. I will probably never have the money back spent on her, but it's a passion, not an investment.
Sorry for the many questions, your help is much appreciated.
DanielForest
True Classic
After 2 years off the road because of a no-start problem that I couldn't diagnose (neither my friend mechanics) - it was the timing belt -- I ran the car a few miles. Then a little more. Then I was confident I could pick up my son at school, 30 miles away. But I didn't made it, the rear brakes seized. So I changed the hoses, the rotors, the pads and rebuild some other rear calipers that were on my - soon to be road ready- X1/9. So yesterday was bleeding time. I tried with the one man tool and didn't liked it, so I asked my son to pump the pedal. After 4 hours of pumping/bleeding and many, many checking (all the hoses correctly torqued, did I miss some fluid, etc). there was still a lot of air in the system. I finally discovered some air bleeding from underneath one bleeder when it was 1/8 turn unscrewed to allow fluid/air to escape. The seat of the bleed screw was the problem. Damn. I will check the one who overheated and will rebuild it instead if the piston look good. Or if I could find another core I could rebuild... Summer is so short in Québec... Could I get just one drive this year!
Last edited by a moderator:
Cratecruncher
True Classic
Daniel, have you tried wrapping the bleeder threads in teflon tape? I use a vacuum bleeder and they always suck air in if I don't use teflon. I hope you get some drives in before the snow flies!
speedy fiat
True Classic
The gearbox is the standard 1500 five speed, if rebuilt I get a couple of seasons competition before the synchros wear out. For road use I'd expect several years.
For the Maxx ecu we needed a better crank sensor and wheel, lambda sensor, better throttle position sensor and I think oil sensor. The latter allows the ecu to monitor the oil pressure over various revs and cut the engine if it falls out of spec, by the time you see gauges/lights signify low oil pressure you are probably too late on a tuned engine. Was the cam sensor only on the 1300?
I think the standard 1300 turbo may be difficult to improve significantly, but I may be wrong on that point. Mines a 1400 turbo unit with upgraded internals, keeps things simple, but as you know the manifolds are different. A turbo closely matched to your output will enable lower and more controlable boost and so kinder to your engine. They have got mine running at .8bar for 180hp
I was guided by the garage that set up the ecu as regards the size of the injectors in relation to the fueling readings, there didn't seem any problems sourcing suitable ones. Running lean is a good way to destroy pistons
We sourced a second hand 1500 Strada/Ritmo cylinder head, which is basically the same engine. We changed the valve sizes to something more suitable and also did a bit of head work at the same time.
I'll dig out the spec of the turbo, sensors, injectors etc and let you know
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
As I understand the Mk1 UT (1300) used a crank sensor on the flywheel and a distributor replacement unit (pulser/phaser) for the cam sensor (although that might have been on later models?). The flywheel crank sensor would require the UT flywheel to be used because the X's is different and won't trigger the sensor correctly. But as you say, a better "toothed" type wheel on the front pulley would be better anyway. Unless you are programming the ECU to run full sequential fuel mapping a cam sensor isn't necessary (with modern aftermarket ECU's). The Mk2 (1400 like yours I believe) had a different arrangement, but I'm not certain of the particulars without going back to refresh my memory (my turbo set up is off a Mk1 so I didn't get to deep into the Mk2). But you are right the Mk2 uses a complete different style of turbo, and therefore exhaust manifold flange. I'm no UT expert so my understanding of things may not be 100%, but from what I learned it sounds like you can get very decent (a relative term) power from a Mk1 without internal mods.
I'm actually quite surprised you have had no issues with the stock 1500 X transmission at 180HP and I presume a LOT of torque (as turbos provide) - aside from syncros (which even stock engined X's have issues with). But I seem to recall your ECU offers launch control of some sorts(?), that may be a significant aid to not damaging the trans?
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I'll be interested to hear what they recommended for injector size. Although I believe the Mk2 UT (1400) used a different type fuel rail and injector than the Mk1 UT. The Mk1 is the same type as on the FI X's.
When I was researching injectors I was quite surprised to learn the Mk1 UT has stock injectors that are much SMALLER capacity than the stock 1500 FI X has. Naturally the UT is 1300cc vs the X at 1500cc, but we're talking boosted vs NA. Also there are direct replacement injectors (for the X) with even greater capacity than the stock X items (e.g. production injectors from 3.0L BMW's for example). I'll have to look at my notes for the actual specs, but they are roughly 30% greater capacity which for my application (low boost with Mk1 UT turbo on stock 1500 engine) should be enough. I've upgraded the fuel pump, fuel lines, and pressure regulator to assist the fuel supply. But no idea how close it will be to what's really needed, which is why I'm looking forward to hearing what yours are.
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
The guy in this video is using Punto GT injectors (249cc) and they seems to work for 200hp together with a RB26DETT Skyline Turbo. That turbo is a quite big piece of metal compared to the tiny standard IHI turbo. Probably a lot of lag on a 1300 engine with such big turbo.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Agreed. And frankly 200 HP is WELL above any expectations I have for my turbo project. I'll try to dig out the specs I have for the stock Mk1 UT, stock X1/9, and BMW injectors for comparison. I know they certainly aren't near 250cc, but also don't need to be (for me).
Should we take this to another section of the forum? I'm really enjoying the conversation (especially with my turbo project), but it seems like we are getting into a long discussion that really isn't "what did you do today".