Winter Projects: Suspension Overhaul

AKimball92

AKimball92

True Classic
For this winter I would like to give my '78 X's suspension an overhaul. This is an original 4 speed 1300 car. What all would you recommend I do while suspension is disassembled? I would like for this thread to be a good one to bring up to anyone else looking to do the same in the future.

I already have 4 rear CA to body bushings.
I already have 2 new hand brake cables.

Other items I might need:
  1. Inner driveshaft boots. I just saw they were cracking. No leaks, just cracking.
  2. With trans drained, new shifter boots. This one is leaking.
  3. Rear Ball Joint boots. 4 total? I will check on the condition but assuming rotten.
  4. Front Radius Rod bushings. 4 total
  5. Steering pivot thrust seal? Uncertain what this is?
  6. Steering rack bushings x2 and rebuild. Has someone made these in brass yet?
  7. Steering rack boots LH and RH. One is ripped in half.
  8. Tie Rod Boots x2 check condition
  9. Wheel bearings. I sure hope I do not need/should have 4 new ones$$$ :eek:
  10. Wheel bearing v-ring seal. 4 total correct. Is there an early and a late? I seem to remember a few posts on this. An good pic of the late 4 speed hub would do wonders
  11. 1 or 2 large track shaped body seals. 1 is missing in rear.
  12. Upper strut mounts x4. I believe these look okay. Nothing is rubbing metal on metal yet anyways.
wow lots of $$$$. What am I missing? Make it something easy and free please.

Do some of these benefit being replaced with modern materials (poly)? Do any assemblies benefit by converting to the 5 speed set up? Is this even possible?

Obviously I will also be cleaning and painting everything possible, including the wheel wells. There is some rust opening up to the engine bay side vents I should conquer but doubt I will get to it.

If I get ambitious, since it's one step further, I wouldn't mind removing the trans to replace the flywheel bolts with drilled ones for safety wiring. #projectcreep
 
On the front suspension, you mentioned the track arm bushings. How about the bushings for the other arm (opposite the ball joint ends).

For various ball joint boots, some of them are hard to find (if available at all) for many of the joints. Like most things, Fiat used rather odd sizes for them. There are universal replacement boots that will work, although not exact sized. They are not expensive and available in urethane/poly as well as rubber. I have a list of the sizes needed for a 1500 5-speed. Not sure if they are the same as yours. But they are easy to measure and buy based on dimension.

I'm not sure what #5 is either. Isn't there something like that inside the steering rack? If you take the rack out and replace the bushings, it might be worth going through it. See the thread by Bernice about it.

You mentioned tie rod end boots. How about the rod ends themselves. Generally speaking the outer tie rod ends tend to wear, allowing some play in the steering.

Those oval shaped body plugs are another one of the odd sized things used on Fiats. And there are a couple different sizes on the car, so be sure to know which ones you need. You may end up looking for a good used one.
 
Before getting our your credit card I would suggest spending some time under the car pulling pushing and doing general inspection.

A bunch of those parts on your list are likely just fine. Clearly all the boots and bellows need replacement along with the various seals. Replace what needs replacing but leave the rest alone.

For example, #10 need not be dealt with until #9 also needs dealing with, you can’t do #10 until you pull the bearing apart in any case. You wouldn’t want the rack mounting rubbers in brass as they would transmit too much NVH, the OE rubber should be just fine for a car not tracked. No idea what #5 is unless its to replace the plastic bushing on the right side of the rack that Carl recently did on his X, MWB has the plastic part and an aluminum replacement part for it which if you use grease in the housing instead of oil should do just fine.

#2 may need a new seal in addition to the boot, the boot isn’t intended to hold the oil in at that location but to keep the seal from seeing dust and dirt that will wear out the seal.

The obround seal in back is missing on all of these cars, it likely was never there on the right rear side. That particular one is unobtanium, aside from a small number remade in cast plastic by Roger a few years ago (it could be printed fairly easily).

It is really nice to start with a car where there are more knowns than unknown unknowns, its why one replaces fluids, belts and so on. Just don’t too far overboard or you will never get the damn thing on the road :)
 
https://dustboots.eu/catalogs/ball-joint-dust-boots-size.htm

i used boots from here for my scorpion. fit perfectly, same as x.. the rear tie rod end was a little off but worked fine. Urethane bushings were my choice.

index.php


index.php
 
kmead said:
Before getting our your credit card
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As usual, Karl makes several excellent points.
I assume the "steering rack bushings made in brass" reference was for the plastic 'internal' one, and not the external mounting ones. In addition to the aluminum one from MWB, Bernice has mentioned having some made from metallic (brass/bronze?) bushing material. But as Karl says, there is only one (that I know of), not "x2". The external mounting bushings are also available in urethane from Vic Autosport.



BEEK said:
i used boots from here for my scorpion.
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Beek, I think that's the same eBay seller I have bookmarked for the boots. As you say, there is at least one that isn't available in the exact size, but close enough to work well.
 
I thought the brass ones were to replace the two piece aluminum ones sold by our venders. Brass makes for a better bushing material than aluminum, both are better than the OEM plastic provided. I thought this was the bushing on both ends of the rack bar. Is that one really on one side of the rack only? Mind blown for how I pictured it’s design.

I did not include the rack mount bushings but should also check these out. I forgot about that.

Part of this thread was to have you talk sense into me before I have to sell a kidney to order all these parts. Assuming after really checking the car over and assessing condition of each.
 
I've not torn a rack apart to know for sure. But the impression I have is there is only a bushing on the long (right) end. At least that is the one that has all the issues and gets replaced. But you are correct, the brass(?) one would be the same concept as the aluminum one from MWB - which is one piece:
15800_2_.jpg

I tend to buy everything I think I might need before getting involved in a big project. But honestly it isn't the most economical way to do it. Typically there will be additional items needed, and a couple purchased ones that aren't needed. With shipping costs being significant these days, it might be worth waiting to order anything until you have things apart and know exactly what you need. But that also delays the project some.

As for what's actually needed, there are a lot of things that could be replaced if you intend to make everything new again. But a lot of the existing parts will continue to offer excellent service for a long time to come, so replacement is not necessary. Everyone has their own goals, comfort level, budget, time constraints, abilities, etc. And every car will have different needs.
 
What about the struts themselves? Or did you already do them? With the strut mounts, just look at whether the strut is still centered in the mount. If it is close to the sheet metal surround, then you need the mounts. If you are taking the suspension that far apart, you really have to consider brake hoses, etc., as well, since all that gets disturbed. Easy enough to look for cracks in the sheathing, which would indicate the need to replace. If they are original you should replace them regardless, since they can break down internally either way.

Wiring the flywheel bolts seems like a waste of time unless you are tracking/racing/running the motor at the rev limit much of the time. Plus then you need to do lightened flywheel, new clutch, etc....
 
lookforjoe said:
What about the struts themselves? Or did you already do them? With the strut mounts, just look at whether the strut is still centered in the mount. If it is close to the sheet metal surround, then you need the mounts. If you are taking the suspension that far apart, you really have to consider brake hoses, etc., as well, since all that gets disturbed. Easy enough to look for cracks in the sheathing, which would indicate the need to replace. If they are original you should replace them regardless, since they can break down internally either way.

Wiring the flywheel bolts seems like a waste of time unless you are tracking/racing/running the motor at the rev limit much of the time. Plus then you need to do lightened flywheel, new clutch, etc....
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The flywheel is lightened already. Unfortunately I didn’t get a weight as I did not have easy access to a scale at the time. I would like to track it eventually. Perhaps I will just do the bolts when I notice any clutch issues. Or need trans drained. That’s expensive fluid.

The brake hoses are new per my ownership. That system was overhauled already besides calipers.

I haven’t seen any top mounts wearing down yet. When back in the garage I will attempt to do a thorough checklist, though. Are the dampers serviceable or simple replace?
 
Drilling the Fiat OEM flywheel screws will do much of nothing as that is not the failure mode of the flywheel to crank joint.
Drilling these Fiat OEM or similar screws will be no fun at all as they are grade 12.9, quite hard on the outside and semi hard on the inside which means any attempt to achieve a hole using hand drill and common drill bit will almost certainly end with a broken drill bit and more mess.

What can and does fail is shearing off all six flywheel to crank screws. The common remedy (does work) is to drill the flywheel for the two 10mm dowel pins that are already on the crank (there are two 10mm dowel pin holes on the crank end) and use ARP flywheel screws with Loctite red.

-Do a Xweb search on this topic as it has been discussed many times in the past.

This should be done for a Lampredi SOHC upped performance engine with higher RPM capability and higher than as delivered power output.


Bernice


AKimball92 said:
If I get ambitious, since it's one step further, I wouldn't mind removing the trans to replace the flywheel bolts with drilled ones for safety wiring. #projectcreep
Click to expand...
 
AKimball92 said:
Are the dampers serviceable or simple replace?
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It depends on what you have.
The early original style struts had an external housing (body), securing top nut, and removable inserts (actual dampening unit). If you have that type, then there are still a couple of "it depends". If the inserts have been replaced with ones that are rebuildable (like Koni's for example), then you can refurbish the insert and reinstall it. If they are not a rebuildable type of insert, then you have to replace the insert with new ones (assuming they are worn and need to be replaced). But it will be difficult to find replacement inserts for that type of housing.
If your housings are not the original type and have been replaced with ones that were designed to be rebuilt (again, Koni is one example), then they are similar to the description above. But instead of rebuilding the insert, you rebuild the strut unit itself (same thing, just a different design).
If your housings/struts have been replaced with ones that do not have a top nut and removable insert (the unit is welded shut, sealed one piece). Then the entire strut assembly must be replaced. Currently KYB struts are the only ones that are readily available new for this car. They are not a performance strut, and not ideal if you eventually track your car.
Unfortunately there aren't a lot of good options for the X1/9 any more. The next option up from there for track use would be coil-over assemblies. That's a whole lot more money though, and comes with a new set of compromises to contend with.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
It depends on what you have.
The early original style struts had an external housing (body), securing top nut, and removable inserts (actual dampening unit). If you have that type, then there are still a couple of "it depends". If the inserts have been replaced with ones that are rebuildable (like Koni's for example), then you can refurbish the insert and reinstall it. If they are not a rebuildable type of insert, then you have to replace the insert with new ones (assuming they are worn and need to be replaced). But it will be difficult to find replacement inserts for that type of housing.
If your housings are not the original type and have been replaced with ones that were designed to be rebuilt (again, Koni is one example), then they are similar to the description above. But instead of rebuilding the insert, you rebuild the strut unit itself (same thing, just a different design).
If your housings/struts have been replaced with ones that do not have a top nut and removable insert (the unit is welded shut, sealed one piece). Then the entire strut assembly must be replaced. Currently KYB struts are the only ones that are readily available new for this car. They are not a performance strut, and not ideal if you eventually track your car.
Unfortunately there aren't a lot of good options for the X1/9 any more. The next option up from there for track use would be coil-over assemblies. That's a whole lot more money though, and comes with a new set of compromises to contend with.
Click to expand...
The original struts were actually not an insert type however they were quite suitable for installing inserts. I pulled the OEM guts (seals, valve, piston, lots of oil) and put in KYB nitrogen filled inserts. They were the high performance model that is no longer made. At the time I did this (early 80s), I think you could get parts to rebuild the originals. Don't know if that is still an option.
 
dllubin said:
At the time I did this (early 80s), I think you could get parts to rebuild the originals. Don't know if that is still an option.
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I highly doubt they are available at this point. But your feedback about the struts' ability to add inserts is very helpful. Thanks
 
Dr.Jeff said:
I highly doubt they are available at this point. But your feedback about the struts' ability to add inserts is very helpful. Thanks
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One thing I recall about that job (aside from getting oil all over the floor when I opened the first strut) was that there was no feature in the strut housing or the KYB insert to make sure they stayed precisely centered. I was looking for something to keep the insert completely centered in the tube throughout its entire length, and just happened to gaze on the wall at a spool of bare 12 gauge copper wire. Turns out if you wrap the insert with it, it will fit snugly in the tube. I suspect the copper may also help pull some heat out of the insert as well.
 
I have a set of Koni struts, with rebuildable components. They are not "inserts", but a removable internal portion with the hydraulic/dampening function. Easy to rebuild or tune by replacing the fluid with a different viscosity, or by replacing some of the discs in the dampener. They have a circular disc at the bottom of the outer housing that centers the internal dampener unit. It also acts as the "bottoming" limiter. The front and rear struts are a bit different design; on one set that round disc at the bottom is fixed (welded in place), on the other set it is a loose piece that gets trapped under the insert. I suppose you could add such a disc beneath your inserts? There is also a spiral length of small diameter (around 1/8") rod wrapped around the inner tubes. It acts to control the movement of fluid. But sounds a little similar to what you did.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
I have a set of Koni struts, with rebuildable components. They are not "inserts", but a removable internal portion with the hydraulic/dampening function. Easy to rebuild or tune by replacing the fluid with a different viscosity, or by replacing some of the discs in the dampener. They have a circular disc at the bottom of the outer housing that centers the internal dampener unit. It also acts as the "bottoming" limiter. The front and rear struts are a bit different design; on one set that round disc at the bottom is fixed (welded in place), on the other set it is a loose piece that gets trapped under the insert. I suppose you could add such a disc beneath your inserts? There is also a spiral length of small diameter (around 1/8") rod wrapped around the inner tubes. It acts to control the movement of fluid. But sounds a little similar to what you did.
Click to expand...
They sound similar in concept to the original Fiat struts in construction. The KYB insert is basically a self contained shock absorber that just happens to sit inside a strut housing. The bottom of the insert sits right on the bottom of the strut tube and the upper end is held in position when you screw the top back on the strut. It precisely positions the insert axially, but not radially, thus the 12 gauge wire.
 
It sounds like rebuilding and tuning the dampers is a ways away for me. As suggested above and what I’ve wanted to do for a while is to get a feel of my car as is first. Yes I did the full engine rebuild but project creep in that regard is really an all or thing scenario. Dampers can come later after I get a few and depetermine myself that the dampers are not stiff enough or simply shot. I’ve literally just driven it around the block a few times in the last 5 years of ownership.
 
I know what you mean. I currently have three project vehicles (of various makes) under construction. And all of them were only driven a few feet prior to tearing everything down. All three are either complete restorations or modified customs, so they have been ongoing for at least 2 or 3 years. At times I wonder what they would have been like to actually drive before starting their transformations. :)
 
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Dr.Jeff said:
I know what you mean. I currently have three project vehicles (of various makes) under construction. And all of them were only driven a few feet prior to tearing everything down. All three are either complete restorations or modified customs, so they have been ongoing for at least 2 or 3 years. At times I wonder what they would have been like to actually drive before starting their transformations. :)
Click to expand...

Fortunately for me, replacing bushings shouldnt put me out past early spring (final thaw lol). The biggest projects in this is just getting everything clean, the park brake cables, and the steering rack.

Should I remove the uprights from the LCAs in the rear and repack? It turns out that rubber seal looks to be new and very... rubbery and nice. I wont need those.

Also the steering rack boots do not need replaced. I dont know what I saw before but I just checked them. The whole assembly is all oily on the outside. The hose clamps on the passenger side have broken off further requiring the full rack rebuild. I will replace the internal plastic bushing while I'm at it.
 
I'll be needing a new ball joint or some magical work on my existing one, or some risk. I found that it appears my existing ball joint and connecting nut was scraped at some point in time to the point that the nut was about 10-20% gone. Do I need a full control arm or are their any sources for a ball joint? I found one at Eurosport for 150 Euro plus shipping. A cutoff CA from MWB is out of stock.

I see a rebuild method here but it doesn't seem to be any cheaper. http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php/BallJoints
It says here that other program control arms have the same actual ball joint. Has anyone torn these apart to replace the internals?

If I have to break down and buy one, so be it.

I also need to buy a ball joint puller... I cannot thread my nut on again until I clean up that top thread. A hammer just doesn't do the trick.
 
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