Winter Projects: Suspension Overhaul

[Dr.Jeff]

Assuming you are referring to the rear main ball joints on the lower control arms? I've seen a couple of places in the past that offered rebuilt joints or some sort of replacement with another application. But they were very expensive - especially for something that might not necessarily be exactly right or reliable. Plus I don't know if any of those places are still around. It seems a lot of Fiat specialty places have gone under in recent years. However there was a recent thread where someone found new Fiat ones. Look through this discussion and see how the price compares:
https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/rear-toe-link-options.36004/#post-313315
Otherwise a good used replacement would be the only other option that i know of.

Also, I just noticed your prior question about repacking the uprights. Are you referring to the wheel/axle bearings? They are sealed and cannot be repacked. But you might have meant something else?

 

[lookforjoe]

I bought a complete used arm from MWB - they give a lifetime warranty on the used ones, the balljoint anyway. I replaced the bushings in it since then.

Given the hot-rivet technique (followed by welds) used to install the factory ball-joints, it's gonna be a PITA to install a new one in any arm.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

it's gonna be a PITA to install a new one

I hadn't even considered that.
What's interesting is I've seen vendors sell used ball joints by cutting off the end of the arm and supplying the entire end piece. Now I wonder if the intent is to cut off the end of your old arm and weld the replacement end on?

Frankly if it requires any cutting and welding to install a new ball joint, then I'd rather find a $25 part from some other vehicle and make a new mount for it on my old arm, rather than spend $150 for a new Fiat joint that still requires as much work to install. You can get pre-made steel ball joint mounts for building front suspension arms on race cars. They weld onto any steel arm and the new joint threads into it. Then machine the hole in the upright to fit the new joint. Heavier duty joint, replaceable, and the whole procedure for both sides would be a fraction of the cost of one stock replacement joint.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Steel-Lower-Ball-Joint-Sleeve-K727-Style-1960-66-Chrysler,32622.html
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-1960-66-Chrysler-K727-Style-Lower-Ball-Joint,3523.html

 

[lookforjoe]

Need a spare upright to figure out what alternative balljoints have the correct offset/form factor. I was considering trying to use a 'replaceable" balljoint from an older Volvo, 200 or 700 series. Most newer ones are integrated into the arm. The X1/9 one has a larger cone/stud if I recall correctly.

Those you linked give the spec, so if someone has a spare arm loose to check against X1/9 spec...

 

[Rupunzell]

Been thinking about working out an alternative method to replace the rear ball joints on the lower A-arm on the exxe for a while. It would be easy enough to set the A-arm up in a milling machine, cut off the top of the worn ball joint, then bore-thread the old ball joint housing to accept a threaded style ball joint. One of the items that needs to be resolved, what is the ball joint's shaft taper, what is the ball diameter, what is the dimension of the ball joint center to lower upright center. This dimension must be maintained to preserve the original rear suspension geometry.

Howe makes a variety of racer car ball joints often used in NASCAR, Sprint cars and other moto sports. The are not expensive for what they are and easily serviceable.
https://howeracing.com

The alternative is to design-built a tubular lower A-arm from tubing with spheric bearings and all. This could be made ball joint taper compatible with the OEM upright or modify the OEM upright to accept spherical bearings per common race car design and fab.


Bernice

 

[AKimball92]

I bought a complete used arm from MWB - they give a lifetime warranty on the used ones, the balljoint anyway. I replaced the bushings in it since then.

Given the hot-rivet technique (followed by welds) used to install the factory ball-joints, it's gonna be a PITA to install a new one in any arm.

I had thought to grind off one side of the rivets and then pound/press it out the other side. Is there enough friction in the joint that the studs wouldn't press out? I believe I could grind out the welds. Slow tedious work doesn't bother me too much. The one I saw is the casted/forged joint and two bolts to reinstall.

So you guys are saying no one makes the ball/taper/and thread alone? Or is it simply that those are not removable/serviceable?

Also, I just noticed your prior question about repacking the uprights. Are you referring to the wheel/axle bearings? They are sealed and cannot be repacked. But you might have meant something else?

Yes. While everything is off, do the hubs come out of the uprights/knuckles? If so how? Would it be worth repacking or if I don't notice anything wrong not to touch it?

 

[Dr.Jeff]

The example I showed earlier is just one of many styles/sizes/types of ball joints/mounts they use for making race car arms. Typically those are based off of very old American car ball joints and used on American style (circle track) race cars. Obviously there are tons of more options beyond that with all of the imports and newer cars to choose from. I'm sure it would not be too difficult to find something and make it work on the X's rear arms for a street car. I've noticed several race X's with custom built tubular arms and solid joints, but just like solid engine mounts they are not fun to live with for normal road use. Fortunately both of my X's have good joints so I'll leave it up to others to work on this project.

Edit to add one more thought. The hole in the upright for the ball joint could easily be retapered with something like this. They come in specific sizes/tapers to match common ball joints. The off-road crowd does this all the time to install larger joints:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...MIjKev6tmT4AIVFh6tBh2iZAP3EAQYBCABEgJUr_D_BwE

 

[Dr.Jeff]

So you guys are saying no one makes the ball/taper/and thread alone? Or is it simply that those are not removable/serviceable?

To do that the joint would have to be opened up, and they are not designed to be. However one of the "rebuilt" ball joints that was offered for the X (not sure if they still are) was made by cutting it open and adapting a new ball portion from some other application. Frankly I think that is more work and more likely to fail than making a new mount for a different ball joint to be used (as discussed earlier). Here is some more info on it:
http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php/BallJoints

I've also seen a service where they inject urethane into a worn ball joint to 'fill in' the worn gap internally. But that does not work well and would not necessarily allow correct alignment or articulation. Another similar trick to help extend the life of a old dry stiff ball joint is to add a zerk fitting (some ball joints for other vehicles come with this) and pump it full of grease. Obviously that won't do anything for a worn joint though.

 

[AKimball92]

I am really shocked the need to replace the balljoints isn't more common after all these years. Basically should any ever get damaged or worn we have replaced them with a used LCA.

I've also seen a service where they inject urethane into a worn ball joint to 'fill in' the worn gap internally. But that does not work well and would not necessarily allow correct alignment or articulation. Another similar trick to help extend the life of a old dry stiff ball joint is to add a zerk fitting (some ball joints for other vehicles come with this) and pump it full of grease. Obviously that won't do anything for a worn joint though.

Solid info but unfortunately mine isnt worn through normal use. Apparently the left side of my car scraped something hard at one point, or a wheel fell off. The jacking point under the drivers seat is also bend a fair amount rearward that a beating with a large hammer did not fix. I'll get to that later.

Been thinking about working out an alternative method to replace the rear ball joints on the lower A-arm on the exxe for a while. It would be easy enough to set the A-arm up in a milling machine, cut off the top of the worn ball joint, then bore-thread the old ball joint housing to accept a threaded style ball joint. One of the items that needs to be resolved, what is the ball joint's shaft taper, what is the ball diameter, what is the dimension of the ball joint center to lower upright center. This dimension must be maintained to preserve the original rear suspension geometry.

Howe makes a variety of racer car ball joints often used in NASCAR, Sprint cars and other moto sports. The are not expensive for what they are and easily serviceable.
https://howeracing.com

The alternative is to design-built a tubular lower A-arm from tubing with spheric bearings and all. This could be made ball joint taper compatible with the OEM upright or modify the OEM upright to accept spherical bearings per common race car design and fab.

When I get mine apart you are free to do with it what you want lol. With only 4ish thread in the nut the BJ itself is not salvageable.

I dont think I want to start experimenting with designing a new ball joint for the X just yet. There are a lot more suspension engineers in this forum with much more experience than I. This is not a simple part time winter project to get the car running by spring. What do those racing the X do in the rear? It looks like its either a new used Left R.L.C.A. from one of our suppliers. Or get a new casting and balljoint from Eurosport or maybe Bielstein (which I need to order other parts from) for slightly cheaper but requires extra labor. Also this would leave me with one brand new on the left and the original on the right. I don't think that should hurt anything.

From Bielstein, is the 131 ball joint the same part? It sure looks the same but uncertain of hole pattern or angle or BJ parameters.
https://www.bielstein.com/ball-joint-131-rally

My choices seem to be:

• So New expensive balljoint with extra work, unknown manufacturing source and overseas shipping.
• Used control arm with used joints from trusted source USA source. Still just as expensive overall. Shipping will be high for the size of the LCA.

 

[lookforjoe]

The one from Bilstein costs more than the one from EuroSport, and unknown if it's the same. I'd just get the one from the UK if going that route. I like Rupenzell's idea of maching the old balljoint 'housing' to accept a threaded base like the Summit listings use. Would need to determine exact dimensions of stock BJ rod. Personally, I would not want to alter the upright BJ seat for a different taper.

 

[AKimball92]

so if i replace this with the brand new one from Bielstein or from Eurosport I will have a damaged BJ for anyone to toss into a miss if they want. I hope welding more material to the casting housing isn't needed. If so i am guessing heat treatment would be required. In that case costs would probably. only make sense in decent sized batches.

Between the two Euro sources will depend on shipping too.

Do any of our NA vendors have these available? Chris Obert has one listed for $422. Vicks posts of rebuilding the who control arm. Does anyone know what this consists of?
http://www.vickauto.com/newstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_7_70&products_id=3071 I would love to support out NA vendors but this would mean paying for shipping twice and so ~50-60 dollars of that would go to Uncle Sam or Mr. UPS?

 

[AKimball92]

I attempted to take the ball joint out of the rear lower control arm. The farther I grind on one end of both the rivets down the more I want to buy a new to me used RLCA. Not that grinding them down sucks because it does. No, the rivets appear to be so pressed in to create deep bowls into the folded control arm. I havent fully ground out the rivet heads but the bowls are 3, 4, maybe 5 mm deep on that side alone. I don't see how two m10's would create as durable a joint as the OEM weld and rivets. Honestly I don't see how the OEM joint lasts where so much metal from the folded LCA is pushed away from the BJ casting and rivets but it's hard to argue against almost 50 years of street and track experience?

Time to look for a "new" left rear LCA as this one is out of commission (BJ and rivets). Does anyone have an extra on hand? I will search our suppliers.

 

[fiatfactory]

you need to cut the heads off the rivets, then centre pop the remaining piece, drill it out with a progressively larger drill bit... if you drill slightly off centre, then your drill hole will break thru one side of the rivet shaft.... a few swift hits with a drift and hammer at this stage will drive the rivet shaft out... you then have to grind back a couple of small tack welds on the inside of the arm, and the ball joint will come free (done heaps of them)

SteveC

 

[Rupunzell]

Rivet removal is done by drilling them out. Cutting or grinding off the head of the rivet will not release the joint retention of a rivet. Load capacity of a rivet is due to it's expansion during the riveting process where the shank or grip length of the rivet expands to fill the space between rivet and hole. Once expanded, the joint is mostly filled increasing the strength of the joint. This is why rivets do very well in shear loading with good fatigue life.


Bernice

 

[lookforjoe]

Frankly if it requires any cutting and welding to install a new ball joint, then I'd rather find a $25 part from some other vehicle and make a new mount for it on my old arm, rather than spend $150 for a new Fiat joint that still requires as much work to install. You can get pre-made steel ball joint mounts for building front suspension arms on race cars. They weld onto any steel arm and the new joint threads into it. Then machine the hole in the upright to fit the new joint. Heavier duty joint, replaceable, and the whole procedure for both sides would be a fraction of the cost of one stock replacement joint.

Looked at this some more. Pics of stock Balljoint. None of the offerings that have .60 to approx .70 taper are close in overall length. Most are 4.5 - 5" length, which won't clear the upright. Has to be something that would work...

Closest in dimension from Speedway is the MoogK5208 (can't tell taper though) equivalent - but it's a bolt in, so a matching flange would need to be welded to modified balljoint end.

Can't find a pic of mine that shows proximity of Balljoint seat to upright / outer CV - it's really close though, if I'm recalling correctly.