RJ80
True Classic
Thanks Chad, will definitely be posting some of both once I'm able to get the car home. Plus side is that it should be pretty sunny and warm-ish here next week.
Lancia Scorpion #1733 -- new owner, project start
- Thread starter RJ80
- Start date
RJ80
True Classic
So here's something I hadn't noticed before: the pictures below are from the head that was on my original engine (my mechanic had a recently rebuilt
Scorpion head that we used instead to save costs and time). Abarth valve springs. And by the look of them with the printed logos still so clean, I'm guessing they're pretty low miles pieces. Fun to see, but not sure if they actually have any advantage over stock. I have a set of NOS Abarth valves that will go well with these should I ever need to build up another head.
Scorpion head that we used instead to save costs and time). Abarth valve springs. And by the look of them with the printed logos still so clean, I'm guessing they're pretty low miles pieces. Fun to see, but not sure if they actually have any advantage over stock. I have a set of NOS Abarth valves that will go well with these should I ever need to build up another head.
RJ80
True Classic
I still don't have my car back, so I'm making sure that I'm all set to get to work when it does come home. I picked up this nearly new X1/9 suspension from a forum member here (thanks again, Steve) and will adapt it to replace the leaking stock bits on my car. These are the KYB Excel-G struts wearing Vick's X1/9 sport springs and fresh looking strut tops.
From my research, the X1/9 struts are viable options for the Scorpion and will lower the car nearly an inch due to the position of the lower mounts versus the Scorpion items. While the rears should bolt right in without extra fiddling, the fronts I'm told will induce too much negative camber, pushing the top of the front tires towards the spring perches and causing clearance issues.
To solve this, I'll do two things: run the 15mm hub-centric wheel spacers I have and use camber bolts on the lower front strut mount holes. Chris Obert was parting out a wrecked X in the For Sale section, and I bought the used camber bolts from that car along with the used Plaia Pivots, which I'll fit to my front strut assemblies before they go on the car.
This is probably the last big job that will need doing before the car can be used regularly. Other minor projects include adding some flex to the exhaust system mounting points and constructing a heat shield between the exhaust and the CV joint on one side.
From my research, the X1/9 struts are viable options for the Scorpion and will lower the car nearly an inch due to the position of the lower mounts versus the Scorpion items. While the rears should bolt right in without extra fiddling, the fronts I'm told will induce too much negative camber, pushing the top of the front tires towards the spring perches and causing clearance issues.
To solve this, I'll do two things: run the 15mm hub-centric wheel spacers I have and use camber bolts on the lower front strut mount holes. Chris Obert was parting out a wrecked X in the For Sale section, and I bought the used camber bolts from that car along with the used Plaia Pivots, which I'll fit to my front strut assemblies before they go on the car.
This is probably the last big job that will need doing before the car can be used regularly. Other minor projects include adding some flex to the exhaust system mounting points and constructing a heat shield between the exhaust and the CV joint on one side.
RJ80
True Classic
Update: I've just driven my Scorpion home! A bit busy with work this afternoon, but I'll be sure to post some photos and even some video, if I can figure that out. I will say, the first drive (my first ever in a Scorpion) exceeded my expectations. Still some fiddling to do with brakes, especially, but happy to have a running, driving project at this stage.
RJ80
True Classic
Ok, here's a more comprehensive update with some photos.
As last posted, I finally picked the car up today in running, driving condition. It's been what, 2.5 years ago that I started this thread with a car that needed a new engine? All this, having never driven a Scorpion or Montecarlo before, but having previously owned several Italian cars including a Fiat X1/9 (my semi-daily for a few years about 20 years ago). I've pined for one ever since going to car shows in the mid-'80s with my dad, who's first new car was a '76 X1/9 (he still owns the now non-running X, but he really wanted a Scorpion instead all those years ago).
The shop that has been rebuilding my engine is Bristow's Exclusive Auto Repair in Tacoma, WA. The owner, Pete Bristow, is a big Lancia fan and has owned a very nice Beta Zagato for many years. My service advisor and project manager there, Chris Carlson, is another Fiat/Lancia fan who's owned Scorpions in the past and really knows a lot about these cars.
Today, I picked up the car and headed northwest of Tacoma about 50 miles to home. The Scorpion fired right up at the shop from cold and exceeded expectations on the way home. I was told to keep revs under 4k or so for 500 miles and vary my revs to help seat the rings. The Serra cam comes on strong at about 3.5k rpm, so I'm really waiting for those last couple thousand revs, but I'm impressed with the torque it has down low -- it's completely driveable around town with a slightly lumpy 800 rpm idle. Pulls away smartly from stop lights and has no trouble keeping up with traffic!
We have dual 42 DCNFs running into pancake filters and a 4-1 "rally" exhaust by Serra exiting on the right side of the car. At 60 mph in 5th (3.1k rpm) on a light throttle it's not too loud, but is louder under full throttle.
I was really concerned that my old struts would lead to a horrible ride, on the contrary, the ride was very comfortable. So much so that I'll stick with my OE struts for a bit while I shake down the car, I think.
What more to say? I'm a bit overwhelmed for the day, so I'll update once I've had several drives under my belt and elaborate on some of the little things that will need improvement.
As last posted, I finally picked the car up today in running, driving condition. It's been what, 2.5 years ago that I started this thread with a car that needed a new engine? All this, having never driven a Scorpion or Montecarlo before, but having previously owned several Italian cars including a Fiat X1/9 (my semi-daily for a few years about 20 years ago). I've pined for one ever since going to car shows in the mid-'80s with my dad, who's first new car was a '76 X1/9 (he still owns the now non-running X, but he really wanted a Scorpion instead all those years ago).
The shop that has been rebuilding my engine is Bristow's Exclusive Auto Repair in Tacoma, WA. The owner, Pete Bristow, is a big Lancia fan and has owned a very nice Beta Zagato for many years. My service advisor and project manager there, Chris Carlson, is another Fiat/Lancia fan who's owned Scorpions in the past and really knows a lot about these cars.
Today, I picked up the car and headed northwest of Tacoma about 50 miles to home. The Scorpion fired right up at the shop from cold and exceeded expectations on the way home. I was told to keep revs under 4k or so for 500 miles and vary my revs to help seat the rings. The Serra cam comes on strong at about 3.5k rpm, so I'm really waiting for those last couple thousand revs, but I'm impressed with the torque it has down low -- it's completely driveable around town with a slightly lumpy 800 rpm idle. Pulls away smartly from stop lights and has no trouble keeping up with traffic!
We have dual 42 DCNFs running into pancake filters and a 4-1 "rally" exhaust by Serra exiting on the right side of the car. At 60 mph in 5th (3.1k rpm) on a light throttle it's not too loud, but is louder under full throttle.
I was really concerned that my old struts would lead to a horrible ride, on the contrary, the ride was very comfortable. So much so that I'll stick with my OE struts for a bit while I shake down the car, I think.
What more to say? I'm a bit overwhelmed for the day, so I'll update once I've had several drives under my belt and elaborate on some of the little things that will need improvement.
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kmead
Old enough to know better
Congrats on getting it back. The engine bay does look very nice, great looking engine.
In regards to noise, going to an air cleaner setup that is a plenum instead of the two filters could reduce the noise and may allow you to get cooler ducted air. A resonator added to the exhaust seems to do wonders. It is how Hussein and Rodger conquered the noise and drone on their VTECs and seems to also work well on other too loud exhausts. Also you might consider changing the muffler to an alternate which can have a good effect.
Factory 124 exhausts always had a resonator and a muffler, it is definitely needed on those cars as well given the difference adding one to a friends car had with his too loud sport exhaust.
I look forward to seeing your next steps. The Senna wheels look very nice on the car. Have fun driving it!
RJ80
True Classic
Thanks, everyone. More photos and some video coming, hopefully soon. Apologies for the photos loaded 90 degrees off. Doh!
The biggest issue I'm currently having is with the brakes. The pedal travel is a bit long and stopping force seems like it should be stronger. I'm pretty familiar with these brake systems having owned a 124 and X1/9 in the past and I know that they never really feel "modern." I think part of my problem stems from the reproduction rear 38mm calipers I'm using. My stock calipers had pitted pistons, so I opted not to rebuild and just buy new. Others here have had a similar issue with long pedal travel, I think the issue was that it took some time for the self-adjuster to take up extra slack between pad and piston, so I'm hoping that some use will auto-solve the issue for me. May need to resort to pad shims or just find new 38mm pistons and rebuild the stock brakes. Ultimately, I'd like to add a front "big brake" solution as well, but I haven't decided on which system to use yet. I do know that the system is bled well -- my shop originally thought my bleeding job was lacking (understandably) but they bled it again without an improvement. The master cylinder is brand new from MWB.
Other thing is that I'd love to add a Lancia 037-type Abarth steering wheel that I have, but I cannot for the life of me get the old wheel to break free of the steering shaft. I've read other posts here on the subject, guess I'll keep soaking the shaft/spline mating area with PB Blaster and maybe order a three-jaw puller. Hammering on alternating sides of the rim, on the nut, on the shaft, etc has done me no good so far. It's really stuck on there!
@mikeroten I actually bought this car in Southern California when I was living there, I know what you mean. Especially now with the collector car registration loophole being closed. There are still, ahem, other ways...
which I guess is what previous owners of my car must have resorted to. It was a CA car all its life until now.
@kmead Agree with you on both intake and exhaust. My plan is ultimately to design a custom airbox that will work with the stock canister filter assembly. The wheels actually aren't Sennas, I didn't particularly care for the faux multi-piece style bolts or shiny finish that those had. These are Ronal A1 replicas made by a company called Maxilite. https://www.maxilite-wheels.com/ I bought them from Centerline Alfa for a good price when they were closing them out.
@BEEK Can't wait to see your completed car(s)! I have been enjoying your build thread and your incredible shop skills.
The biggest issue I'm currently having is with the brakes. The pedal travel is a bit long and stopping force seems like it should be stronger. I'm pretty familiar with these brake systems having owned a 124 and X1/9 in the past and I know that they never really feel "modern." I think part of my problem stems from the reproduction rear 38mm calipers I'm using. My stock calipers had pitted pistons, so I opted not to rebuild and just buy new. Others here have had a similar issue with long pedal travel, I think the issue was that it took some time for the self-adjuster to take up extra slack between pad and piston, so I'm hoping that some use will auto-solve the issue for me. May need to resort to pad shims or just find new 38mm pistons and rebuild the stock brakes. Ultimately, I'd like to add a front "big brake" solution as well, but I haven't decided on which system to use yet. I do know that the system is bled well -- my shop originally thought my bleeding job was lacking (understandably) but they bled it again without an improvement. The master cylinder is brand new from MWB.
Other thing is that I'd love to add a Lancia 037-type Abarth steering wheel that I have, but I cannot for the life of me get the old wheel to break free of the steering shaft. I've read other posts here on the subject, guess I'll keep soaking the shaft/spline mating area with PB Blaster and maybe order a three-jaw puller. Hammering on alternating sides of the rim, on the nut, on the shaft, etc has done me no good so far. It's really stuck on there!
@mikeroten I actually bought this car in Southern California when I was living there, I know what you mean. Especially now with the collector car registration loophole being closed. There are still, ahem, other ways...
which I guess is what previous owners of my car must have resorted to. It was a CA car all its life until now.@kmead Agree with you on both intake and exhaust. My plan is ultimately to design a custom airbox that will work with the stock canister filter assembly. The wheels actually aren't Sennas, I didn't particularly care for the faux multi-piece style bolts or shiny finish that those had. These are Ronal A1 replicas made by a company called Maxilite. https://www.maxilite-wheels.com/ I bought them from Centerline Alfa for a good price when they were closing them out.
@BEEK Can't wait to see your completed car(s)! I have been enjoying your build thread and your incredible shop skills.
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RJ80
True Classic
I had another drive in the car today and it's running great, though it did take a few cranks before it finally "caught," initially. I'm starting to feel even more at home in the car after another 30 miles in it and it feels like it's waking up from a long sleep, which it is. Out on the backroads, I'm able to tell that the struts really do need to be replaced, there's some excessive body movement that's much more apparent on uneven surfaces. Plus the front left strut is quite damp with oil. The gearchange is getting better and better, the gearbox is probably happy to be getting some use after so long sitting.
Either I'm starting to get used to the brakes or they're functioning a little confidently. I still haven't tried to lock them up completely, but using more pedal pressure (deleted booster) they slow acceptably to get aroundd. They still don't feel anything like modern brakes, but don't feel significantly worse than my old 124 Spider or X1/9 brakes (though I never had complete confidence in them either, if I'm honest). The car does feel safe to drive, which I'm happy about as I continue to put on miles.
I did finally think to take a little video of the engine after getting back home today. Sounds pretty good, no?
Either I'm starting to get used to the brakes or they're functioning a little confidently. I still haven't tried to lock them up completely, but using more pedal pressure (deleted booster) they slow acceptably to get aroundd. They still don't feel anything like modern brakes, but don't feel significantly worse than my old 124 Spider or X1/9 brakes (though I never had complete confidence in them either, if I'm honest). The car does feel safe to drive, which I'm happy about as I continue to put on miles.
I did finally think to take a little video of the engine after getting back home today. Sounds pretty good, no?
RJ80
True Classic
I've gotten the car out and about a few times in the last week, still enjoying it very much and not at all regretting my decision to start this project. I think this one's a keeper. I decided to replace the gas cap because the locking mechanism on my original is broken as well. Looks like it was jimmy'd at some point. Found the replacement on eBay for $16 shipping included and I think it looks great, photo below.
Given social distancing guidelines, I'm delaying replacing the suspension just yet, since that will require a fresh alignment -- something I don't really want to contend with until this virus dies down further. Do have an order coming from MWB this Saturday with some needed bits and pieces, I'll update then.
I think the brakes are coming into their own, not nearly as worried about them as I was 100 miles ago.
Given social distancing guidelines, I'm delaying replacing the suspension just yet, since that will require a fresh alignment -- something I don't really want to contend with until this virus dies down further. Do have an order coming from MWB this Saturday with some needed bits and pieces, I'll update then.
I think the brakes are coming into their own, not nearly as worried about them as I was 100 miles ago.
RJ80
True Classic
I think you're right, Karl. It was probably a matter of getting used to the way these brakes feel and the force required to operate them, once again. It's been a couple years since I sold my 850 and more than double that since my last 124. I still haven't tried a full-force panic stop test, need to do that to be sure.More likely the operator now knows what to is required and applying the needed force to achieve he expected result
I'm glad I bought them, but since Centerline Alfa only sold them in sets of four, I'm on my own trying to find a matching spare. I'm currently driving around without a spare at all, which is probably really testing my luck!
I'll take this rainy week to sort some small issues in the garage. My right side rear turn signal and brake light are intermittent according to my wife who's been following me on drives in her Miata (have a wire brush and contact cleaner ready to deploy). Then I can also reinstall the spare tire keeper and hopefully source a proper spare. May just put a 175-width tire on a spare 13-inch wheel for the time being. I don't even know if a front 195-width tire will fit under the engine lid, let alone a 205 like I have in the rear.
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kmead
Old enough to know better
Modern tires generally don’t get flats until you get down the last bit of tread, unless you have something catastrophic happen (ie a large object, slash etc) it is part of why many cars don’t have spares.
Without a booster the brakes will be more X than 850 given the weight difference and the fact that the rear brakes of the 850 are self leading drums so the effort is pretty low.
The greater weight of the Lancia will have an effect the one advantage being the larger rear calipers which should improve the braking with a greater rear bias as compared to the X though with a bit more pedal travel.
Without a booster the brakes will be more X than 850 given the weight difference and the fact that the rear brakes of the 850 are self leading drums so the effort is pretty low.
The greater weight of the Lancia will have an effect the one advantage being the larger rear calipers which should improve the braking with a greater rear bias as compared to the X though with a bit more pedal travel.
RJ80
True Classic
I had my first drive in my dad's X1/9 when I was maybe 19 years old. My parents live on a hilly road and coming to the first big turn downhill out of the driveway, I vividly remember wondering if I was going to be able to slow down enough to avoid sailing off the cliff. I wasn't driving quickly, but I was used to the power-assisted brakes in my hand-me-down 1989 Honda Accord and having to use so much effort just didn't feel safe at the time -- I was sure something was horribly wrong. By the time I got home from my quick trip to the store, my confidence was much higher.
I do think a brake system upgrade, either to Primas or Wilwoods, is in my future at some point. I would really like to have a more "solid" or "firm" feeling pedal with less travel.
I do think a brake system upgrade, either to Primas or Wilwoods, is in my future at some point. I would really like to have a more "solid" or "firm" feeling pedal with less travel.
RJ80
True Classic
I thought everyone might enjoy seeing some post-mortem photos of my original engine. After extended use of my trusty 5-lb sledge and some 2x4 scraps was able to pop the stuck #1 piston out of the block. What a mess. The other three came out relatively easily, but #2 also showed some signs of water intrusion.
Leaky head gasket that was allowed to sit? Rain water down an open cylinder head orifice at some point? Who knows, but someone must have tried to turn the engine over with the then-rusty water inside, blowing that junk all through the intake and exhaust before it seized up. Some of the rusty sludge even ended up inside the engine compartment. Not sure how anyone could sell a car like that saying "it just needs a battery and a fuel pump!" It did actually need both of those things, but also so, so much more. I will never, ever buy a non-runner again without verifying the engine at least turns over.
I googled the number stamped on the underside of the pistons and was directed here: https://www.kmotorshop.com/article-detail/view/en/116737/piston-93317620-kolbenschmidt-5881521. Kolbenschmidt pistons (I haven't heard of them, have any of you?). They're 0.4 overbore according to that site and the piston tops indicated a 4mm dome, 9.8:1 CR -- similar to the pistons in the car now. They'll make good paperweights I suppose. Maybe next winter when driving days are limited, I'll attempt a home rebuild of this engine as I'd first intended. Enjoy the photos...
Leaky head gasket that was allowed to sit? Rain water down an open cylinder head orifice at some point? Who knows, but someone must have tried to turn the engine over with the then-rusty water inside, blowing that junk all through the intake and exhaust before it seized up. Some of the rusty sludge even ended up inside the engine compartment. Not sure how anyone could sell a car like that saying "it just needs a battery and a fuel pump!" It did actually need both of those things, but also so, so much more. I will never, ever buy a non-runner again without verifying the engine at least turns over.
I googled the number stamped on the underside of the pistons and was directed here: https://www.kmotorshop.com/article-detail/view/en/116737/piston-93317620-kolbenschmidt-5881521. Kolbenschmidt pistons (I haven't heard of them, have any of you?). They're 0.4 overbore according to that site and the piston tops indicated a 4mm dome, 9.8:1 CR -- similar to the pistons in the car now. They'll make good paperweights I suppose. Maybe next winter when driving days are limited, I'll attempt a home rebuild of this engine as I'd first intended. Enjoy the photos...