lookforjoe
True Classic
Many thanks, Dom! I actually just ordered everything from CObert - he has the proper(?) gasket listed, and I needed the TTY bolts again anyway.
Thank you so much for the offer, though.
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Melted Piston.
- Thread starter lookforjoe
- Start date
Many thanks, Dom! I actually just ordered everything from CObert - he has the proper(?) gasket listed, and I needed the TTY bolts again anyway.
Thank you so much for the offer, though.
lookforjoe
True Classic
Thanks for the message & links Steve.
I found that part number listed on CObert's site (edit - actually cross referenced as such, now I look more closely, not direct listing). He only had one set of TTY bolts left in stock (according to the site), so I went ahead & ordered the gasket and bolts from his website while they were available. I asked for confirmation on the gasket style.
EDIT: I had also emailed the Italian seller, to see if the package was still properly sealed. I'm not sure the gasket would still be good to use if it has been sitting open for 20 something years....
EDIT - he said the abg is properly sealed, so I bought that one also, in case Obert cannot confirm theirs is TTY version.
Unfortunately I can't attribute all three to the same cause - the last one would be most likely as a result of the combo of TTY & composite since I used a stock thickness HG I had purchased previously from MWB.
I found that part number listed on CObert's site (edit - actually cross referenced as such, now I look more closely, not direct listing). He only had one set of TTY bolts left in stock (according to the site), so I went ahead & ordered the gasket and bolts from his website while they were available. I asked for confirmation on the gasket style.
EDIT: I had also emailed the Italian seller, to see if the package was still properly sealed. I'm not sure the gasket would still be good to use if it has been sitting open for 20 something years....
EDIT - he said the abg is properly sealed, so I bought that one also, in case Obert cannot confirm theirs is TTY version.
Unfortunately I can't attribute all three to the same cause - the last one would be most likely as a result of the combo of TTY & composite since I used a stock thickness HG I had purchased previously from MWB.
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Looks like blown out fire rings again. Not sure if in fact it blew out due to lack of retorque, or purely due to detonation. I will need to revise the timing map as a precaution. Maybe use the Turbo map, which has less timing across the board, even in the off boost areas. Otherwise, I'll take 4º off every cell in the map & see how that goes.
#1
#2
Chris Obert says the bolts he sells should be retorqued as per the Fiat manual.
I don't see how they can be true TTY bolts in that case. Looking at them again, I don't see the typical tapering of the shank I am familiar with with Volvo TTY bolts.
In any event, I will resign myself to retorqueing the head this time around.
This is a Volvo branch pipe next to the Fiat one. Same OD/ID. I will cut it up & make a new one that shifts further away from the header. I'd like to eliminate the hose elbow into the T/stat housing & use a silicone step coupler instead. Have to investigate that option.
Found that the new dogbone I bought from Vic's this year has already cracked at both ends - have to get in touch with them about that
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Dom, I tried messaging you, but your box is full - can you message me?
lookforjoe
True Classic
Got the head back, no worries there. Worked on the branch pipe
May try to eliminate the elbow as well. First I need to fabricate a steel branch for the heater return that comes up and away from the header
May try to eliminate the elbow as well. First I need to fabricate a steel branch for the heater return that comes up and away from the header
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lookforjoe
True Classic
NA timing map - what I have in place
Turbo timing map
EDIT: Fiat FI timing spec
Since I don't know where the load range actually ends up in my installation, I may be running way to much timing up top, not maybe definitely.
Turbo timing map
EDIT: Fiat FI timing spec
Since I don't know where the load range actually ends up in my installation, I may be running way to much timing up top, not maybe definitely.
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Yeah, there would be limits as to how much it can extract. Honestly, I have not been hearing any knock, so it's probably in the higher rpm mid load range. I wish I could log timing, etc. but no provision for that with this old system.
lookforjoe
True Classic
Finished the branch pipe.
Heater return moved far way from header. Volvo heater valve now sits on top of t/stat housing.
Heater return moved far way from header. Volvo heater valve now sits on top of t/stat housing.
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Put the head back on today.
I used the bolts from Obert, and a head gasket from him thart arrived last week. I will follow the retorque procedure outlined in the SB.
I have other TTY bolts I purchased from the UK,
which came with a torque procedure sheet
I have a VR gasket coming by way of Dom, and 'real' Elring TTY bolts from a European vendor. If I end up doing the HG again (I'm hoping not, now the timing issue is being addressed) I will use the VR gasket & Elring bolt kit
spec sheet for them:
I used the bolts from Obert, and a head gasket from him thart arrived last week. I will follow the retorque procedure outlined in the SB.
I have other TTY bolts I purchased from the UK,
which came with a torque procedure sheet
I have a VR gasket coming by way of Dom, and 'real' Elring TTY bolts from a European vendor. If I end up doing the HG again (I'm hoping not, now the timing issue is being addressed) I will use the VR gasket & Elring bolt kit
spec sheet for them:
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Got my newly fabricated fuel rail back - I had the machine shop mill the ports & weld the bungs/fittings on a length of new fuel rail stock - the one I made previously was a modified Honda rail, and the feed ID was really small - just want to make sure I'm covering every base in terms of causes of detonation.
Aeromotive fuel rail, cut from 17" length PN 14107.
-6 AN male welded to left side of rail. 3/8" NPT bung on right side, 1/8" NPT bung on top right for FP gauge.
I purchased AN -6 fittings (black union underneath the sheathed CS feed) with an An-6/ quick-connect adaptor for the fuel line connection, instead of the homemade one I had previously.
Fittings: 1) Fragola 496206BL Aluminum 45 Degree Female Coupler Swivel Adapter -6 AN and 2) BOOSTEC 5/16" male to -6AN Male Push On/Quick Connect Fuel Adapter Fitting
Back together and running- CLOUDS of coolant smoke - the exhaust is dripping coolant - it's gonna take awhile to burn all that out.
NOT going to drive it on the road at all until the timing mapping is changed - starting & warmup is not going to run excessive timing. So far, the modified bin I have tried has not allowed the engine to start, so I need to verify the ECU with a stock map.
Aeromotive fuel rail, cut from 17" length PN 14107.
-6 AN male welded to left side of rail. 3/8" NPT bung on right side, 1/8" NPT bung on top right for FP gauge.
I purchased AN -6 fittings (black union underneath the sheathed CS feed) with an An-6/ quick-connect adaptor for the fuel line connection, instead of the homemade one I had previously.
Fittings: 1) Fragola 496206BL Aluminum 45 Degree Female Coupler Swivel Adapter -6 AN and 2) BOOSTEC 5/16" male to -6AN Male Push On/Quick Connect Fuel Adapter Fitting
Back together and running- CLOUDS of coolant smoke - the exhaust is dripping coolant - it's gonna take awhile to burn all that out.
NOT going to drive it on the road at all until the timing mapping is changed - starting & warmup is not going to run excessive timing. So far, the modified bin I have tried has not allowed the engine to start, so I need to verify the ECU with a stock map.
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Did the head retorque today.
Plenum, torque mount & bracket & alt bracket have to be removed to gain clearance for the offset tools.
60º (one flat) on each, following the head torque sequence, followed by 30º (1/2 a flat) on each.
Plenum, torque mount & bracket & alt bracket have to be removed to gain clearance for the offset tools.
60º (one flat) on each, following the head torque sequence, followed by 30º (1/2 a flat) on each.
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Forgot to add the timing map I made using the stock dist advance curve
stock curve for ref
Car runs well overall since the last HG replacement & timing remap. Only problem is I still can't log timing events so I don't know if it is optimum. Don't see any knock events on the LED tied to the signal circuit used for knock indication. Coolant temp creeps up under heavy load (approaches normal marker, normally sits about 10º below that). AFR's are OK, although I would like it to be a tad fatter up top. Between timing & fueling, that could eaily account for gradual creep in engine temp under higher load.
Engine definitely drops off over 5K (flattens out), but pulls very strong from around 1200, so I'm thinking I should advance the cam timing a tad to shift the power band a little. Edit - need to check idle vacuum with cam as is .Problem is, with the other variables in play I'm not sure that is wise just yet. Decisions, decisions...
EDIT: Problem was mostly due to incorrect rpm reporting with wasted spark tach relay circuit - 5K on tach was actually over 6,5K.
stock curve for ref
Car runs well overall since the last HG replacement & timing remap. Only problem is I still can't log timing events so I don't know if it is optimum. Don't see any knock events on the LED tied to the signal circuit used for knock indication. Coolant temp creeps up under heavy load (approaches normal marker, normally sits about 10º below that). AFR's are OK, although I would like it to be a tad fatter up top. Between timing & fueling, that could eaily account for gradual creep in engine temp under higher load.
Engine definitely drops off over 5K (flattens out), but pulls very strong from around 1200, so I'm thinking I should advance the cam timing a tad to shift the power band a little. Edit - need to check idle vacuum with cam as is .Problem is, with the other variables in play I'm not sure that is wise just yet. Decisions, decisions...
EDIT: Problem was mostly due to incorrect rpm reporting with wasted spark tach relay circuit - 5K on tach was actually over 6,5K.
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Added an engine bay fan back. With the hotter weather coming back, I'm concerned about heat soak. When I turn the engine off, and try to restart within just a few mins., the gauge has always risen to just above normal, or about a 10-15º increase over running temp. WIth the old stock starter, the heat soak would murder it's ability to crank -not a problem for the gear reduction I have now, but I'm sure it's still more of a toll than is ideal. The fuel rail is solid aluminum stock, and for all I know the fuel is getting hotter than is prudent also - which would lead to volume drop & lean conditions.
Anyway, I don't want to reinstall the stock injection fan (even if I could) so I added the 7" 500CFM fan (only draws 5A @ max flow) I bought many years ago to use on the condensor. I mounted it on the inside of the engine cover to suck heat out the top. The motor is governed by the thermoswitch of the style used for the injection fan and radiator fans - turns on at 95ºC, and off at 90ºC. I mounted it a little higher than the stock placement. In addition, I wired a timer relay (Volvo 700 sideview mirror / rear defrost) that only allows the fan to run for 6min max after engine is shut down. The fan can also run in normal operation if the bay temp exceeds 95ºc when sitting in traffic (which I have already determined it does, when I get off the highway & have to sit on my exit ramp waiting for the light).
7" FFDynamics fan. Undecided on cutting away some of the outer grille work. Have to see how long the fan actually runs, to see if it can move enough air around the existing obstacle. May add longitudinal braces for the two other fan casing mount points.
thermo switch
Timer Relay
Wiring - switch action is replaced by switched vbat - which engages the timer when the switched signal is removed, and will operate the fan if the thermo sensor is grounding.
Anyway, I don't want to reinstall the stock injection fan (even if I could) so I added the 7" 500CFM fan (only draws 5A @ max flow) I bought many years ago to use on the condensor. I mounted it on the inside of the engine cover to suck heat out the top. The motor is governed by the thermoswitch of the style used for the injection fan and radiator fans - turns on at 95ºC, and off at 90ºC. I mounted it a little higher than the stock placement. In addition, I wired a timer relay (Volvo 700 sideview mirror / rear defrost) that only allows the fan to run for 6min max after engine is shut down. The fan can also run in normal operation if the bay temp exceeds 95ºc when sitting in traffic (which I have already determined it does, when I get off the highway & have to sit on my exit ramp waiting for the light).
7" FFDynamics fan. Undecided on cutting away some of the outer grille work. Have to see how long the fan actually runs, to see if it can move enough air around the existing obstacle. May add longitudinal braces for the two other fan casing mount points.
thermo switch
Timer Relay
Wiring - switch action is replaced by switched vbat - which engages the timer when the switched signal is removed, and will operate the fan if the thermo sensor is grounding.
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lookforjoe
True Classic
134,324K miles. Burnt coolant smell this morning - uneven idle. Within 5 min I had a puff of coolant smoke on startup. Only a mile from home so I drove it without temps rising. Going to pull head. I was planning on adding the det can today, too late now. Knock sensor clearly was not registering squat.
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Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Crap, not again! That really sucks, I feel for you. But try not to get too discouraged, take it as a challenge to be conquered.
Maybe its time to step back and review the big picture; could there be variables at play other than pre-det (warped head, block surface, etc)? I know you are on top of things but sometimes I find myself discounting possibilities without verifying and triple checking because I was SURE that wasn't it...only to later discover it was. Perhaps consider going to ARP studs in place of bolts and a Cometic MLS head gasket? Just throwing out thoughts. Four times is not a coincidence.
As a side note, regarding Victor Reinz gaskets. I don't want to stir up any controversy but I learned something very interesting while attending a international trade show for aftermarket automotive parts suppliers. As I was walking through the exhibits I recognized a very familiar oil pan gasket with integrated windage (splash) tray on display (non Fiat). So I stopped to talk with them; a family company from China that manufactures gaskets, seals, etc. Turns out they make most of Victor Reinz products. I was skeptical because I've seen "made in Germany" all over VR stuff. They showed me pictures of VR himself at their China plant (a very large, modern facility), and pictures of them with VR himself at his facilities in Germany. Plus they showed me samples of several products they make for him. They went on to explain a little about the business arrangement they have with VR; exclusive manufacturing of a ton of products, packaged in VR labels. Furthermore they also supply similar products to several other well known 'big brand' companies in other countries. This perplexed me enough to do some research. I discovered Germany has a law that allows a German company to take a product made anywhere in the world, provide some sort of "enhancement" to it, and then declare it as "made in Germany". The concept being the product has been improved to German standards by the German company and it is now a German product. However they have also declared that such things as placing a German brand label on the product or re-packaging it in a German container constitute "enhancement" of that product. Therefore they can then place "made in Germany" on something despite it being manufactured somewhere else with no real changes to it.
This should be no surprise however. 1) We have all heard that just about every large corporation in the world has manufacturing plants in various countries, including China, India, Vietnam, Korea, etc. 2) Most companies are in fact subsidiaries of, owned by, or otherwise related to another larger conglomerate with world-wide facilities. 3) The origin of a product does not necessarily dictate its quality; some incredibly high quality items come from China, some incredibly low quality items come from the USA, and vice versa. 4) You don't always get what you pay for...price is not a reflection of quality (welcome to 'marketing'). 5) After more than 45 years involvement in the automotive industry very little really surprises me anymore, I've encountered many such situations.
To be clear I'm not knocking VR. Personally I have found VR products to be good. Some of the best products I've ever seen originated from China and he seems to have found a very reputable company there to make his stuff. Unfortunately, after talking to the family, I now know what VR actually pays for those products vs what he charges for them (Ouch). Although 're-branding' and absorbent price markups are common business practices, its a little harder to accept when you know about it.
Maybe its time to step back and review the big picture; could there be variables at play other than pre-det (warped head, block surface, etc)? I know you are on top of things but sometimes I find myself discounting possibilities without verifying and triple checking because I was SURE that wasn't it...only to later discover it was. Perhaps consider going to ARP studs in place of bolts and a Cometic MLS head gasket? Just throwing out thoughts. Four times is not a coincidence.
As a side note, regarding Victor Reinz gaskets. I don't want to stir up any controversy but I learned something very interesting while attending a international trade show for aftermarket automotive parts suppliers. As I was walking through the exhibits I recognized a very familiar oil pan gasket with integrated windage (splash) tray on display (non Fiat). So I stopped to talk with them; a family company from China that manufactures gaskets, seals, etc. Turns out they make most of Victor Reinz products. I was skeptical because I've seen "made in Germany" all over VR stuff. They showed me pictures of VR himself at their China plant (a very large, modern facility), and pictures of them with VR himself at his facilities in Germany. Plus they showed me samples of several products they make for him. They went on to explain a little about the business arrangement they have with VR; exclusive manufacturing of a ton of products, packaged in VR labels. Furthermore they also supply similar products to several other well known 'big brand' companies in other countries. This perplexed me enough to do some research. I discovered Germany has a law that allows a German company to take a product made anywhere in the world, provide some sort of "enhancement" to it, and then declare it as "made in Germany". The concept being the product has been improved to German standards by the German company and it is now a German product. However they have also declared that such things as placing a German brand label on the product or re-packaging it in a German container constitute "enhancement" of that product. Therefore they can then place "made in Germany" on something despite it being manufactured somewhere else with no real changes to it.
This should be no surprise however. 1) We have all heard that just about every large corporation in the world has manufacturing plants in various countries, including China, India, Vietnam, Korea, etc. 2) Most companies are in fact subsidiaries of, owned by, or otherwise related to another larger conglomerate with world-wide facilities. 3) The origin of a product does not necessarily dictate its quality; some incredibly high quality items come from China, some incredibly low quality items come from the USA, and vice versa. 4) You don't always get what you pay for...price is not a reflection of quality (welcome to 'marketing'). 5) After more than 45 years involvement in the automotive industry very little really surprises me anymore, I've encountered many such situations.
To be clear I'm not knocking VR. Personally I have found VR products to be good. Some of the best products I've ever seen originated from China and he seems to have found a very reputable company there to make his stuff. Unfortunately, after talking to the family, I now know what VR actually pays for those products vs what he charges for them (Ouch). Although 're-branding' and absorbent price markups are common business practices, its a little harder to accept when you know about it.
lookforjoe
True Classic
I think I spoke too soon, as far as cause is concerned... I got the head off (inbetween rain showers). Head gasket shows none of the obvious signs of detonation (ovalled & hammered fire rings) that marked all the previous failures. What I did find however is that the gasket (from Obert) does not sit centered over the bores(!!!) I noticed a large exposed lip on the rear (facing) side of the the bore, and you can feel where the fire ring hangs over the (foreward facing) bore edge. The gasket failed between 2-3, far as I can tell. If it's not that, then there has to be a crack in the head.
Pics:
nice clean flame trap - no coolant in oil
#3 exhaust port - #3 looks like the one that has had some seepage, based on the crud.
#2 looks the same as the other two, so I guess it blew into #3 chamber first than over to #2?
#2 exhaust port
failure point, I'd have to say
overlap problem you can see the uneven spacing around the piston here...
up close
backside - blackened areas are where it hangs over the bore
other new gaskets for comparison of bore centricity
MWB 'heavy duty"
VR has a slight overhang at the rearward edge - no where near as dramatic as the one from Obert
Pics:
nice clean flame trap - no coolant in oil
#3 exhaust port - #3 looks like the one that has had some seepage, based on the crud.
#2 looks the same as the other two, so I guess it blew into #3 chamber first than over to #2?
#2 exhaust port
failure point, I'd have to say
overlap problem you can see the uneven spacing around the piston here...
up close
backside - blackened areas are where it hangs over the bore
other new gaskets for comparison of bore centricity
MWB 'heavy duty"
VR has a slight overhang at the rearward edge - no where near as dramatic as the one from Obert
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Rod Midkiff
True Classic
thank you for the close up pictures. Never even thought about looking for that. Next head gasket I do I will be test fitting for that problem.
lookforjoe
True Classic
Head should be done around noon. Haven't talked with him yet to see if he found anything - I did note that #1 & 2 exhaust valve aren't fully seating (cleaner sprayed in ports seeped out around valve). Hopefully it didn't need skimming & it's just the gasket offset causing the failure this time.
Anyway, I decided I'm going to take the opportunity to spend some time making a better heat shield. I carved up a Volvo manifold shield years ago, but it is pressed against the header & doesn't reach in between 2-3 where the exposed header flange heat is free to rise & contribute to heating my fuel rail. I'll probably just use aluminum sheet & coat with the DEI heat shield, since I have those available. I'll look at mounting it on the runner /plenum connection, as that it keep it away from the header.
I originally used the Volvo shield as it is of course the laminated expensive shield material, but with all the areas of direct contact to the header, I don't feel it is effective enough (and it can rattle from time to time
Anyway, I decided I'm going to take the opportunity to spend some time making a better heat shield. I carved up a Volvo manifold shield years ago, but it is pressed against the header & doesn't reach in between 2-3 where the exposed header flange heat is free to rise & contribute to heating my fuel rail. I'll probably just use aluminum sheet & coat with the DEI heat shield, since I have those available. I'll look at mounting it on the runner /plenum connection, as that it keep it away from the header.
I originally used the Volvo shield as it is of course the laminated expensive shield material, but with all the areas of direct contact to the header, I don't feel it is effective enough (and it can rattle from time to time
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