RED X19
- Thread starter Janis
- Start date
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I think a proper tune would not pop and bang, being more efficient.
Janis
True Classic
Didn’t have a mood today to make pulls from 0, and maybe of this mood 3500rpm at 100km/h became very annoying.
1. I want to get engine’s rpm lower, a lot
2.I would like to be able shift gears faster
3. I would love to solve this within one weekend.
Would appreciate Your thoughts on this.
I already have UT mk1 internals.
What I see I could do:
1. Put UT internals or just final drive. But to do this I would have to take engine out. Disassemble gearbox and while doing it hoping that case doesn’t break. Change all seals and put it back together.
This to me seems ~24h job, most likely it will take me 2 weekends and that is not what I prefer- to be my daily car out of service. Steve H or any other who has done pretend that didn’t see what I just wrote
2. Find another X1/9 core and do internal swap, and then just swap gearboxes. BUT that means extra costs on core
3.look for absolutely other gearbox that could fit X19. Yes, this could be 10x more expensive than a core
What would You do?
1. I want to get engine’s rpm lower, a lot
2.I would like to be able shift gears faster
3. I would love to solve this within one weekend.
Would appreciate Your thoughts on this.
I already have UT mk1 internals.
What I see I could do:
1. Put UT internals or just final drive. But to do this I would have to take engine out. Disassemble gearbox and while doing it hoping that case doesn’t break. Change all seals and put it back together.
This to me seems ~24h job, most likely it will take me 2 weekends and that is not what I prefer- to be my daily car out of service. Steve H or any other who has done pretend that didn’t see what I just wrote
2. Find another X1/9 core and do internal swap, and then just swap gearboxes. BUT that means extra costs on core
3.look for absolutely other gearbox that could fit X19. Yes, this could be 10x more expensive than a core
What would You do?
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
I am in the same situation.
The X trans is too weak for 205 whp 267 wNm and revs to much on highway.
Would like to install a much stronger C510 (UT Mk2) gearbox which I bought last year, but that would require cable conversion, a new shifter and a new clutch plate. This would mean too much work for me at the moment as I have to prioritize other things with the car. So project postponed to next winter.
I also have another X1/9 gearbox that is "locked" and a newly bought Ritmo trans. My plan is to repair the X1/9 trans and swap the taller final drive and other internals from the Ritmo trans (if they turn out to be in better condition).
I've never put a gearbox apart before so this is scarying. I will study Steve H.'s instructions and do my best.
The X trans is too weak for 205 whp 267 wNm and revs to much on highway.
Would like to install a much stronger C510 (UT Mk2) gearbox which I bought last year, but that would require cable conversion, a new shifter and a new clutch plate. This would mean too much work for me at the moment as I have to prioritize other things with the car. So project postponed to next winter.
I also have another X1/9 gearbox that is "locked" and a newly bought Ritmo trans. My plan is to repair the X1/9 trans and swap the taller final drive and other internals from the Ritmo trans (if they turn out to be in better condition).
I've never put a gearbox apart before so this is scarying. I will study Steve H.'s instructions and do my best.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
One question I would ask is if installing the UT internals will make the shifts any faster? Are they that much different design that it will shift better - or did you mean something else by that (sorry if I misunderstood)?
I think the UT trans may be stronger than the X trans? If so then maybe it will survive hard shifts better without breaking. And that might be what you want?
Changing the final drive ratio should have an effect on how quickly you can go through the gears. But I think you will need a lower ratio (shorter, not taller gears) to achieve that. And then it will be revving even higher (not less) when cruising on faster speed roads.
If the later trans after UT (C510 I think?) is much better and it is a different design, then it might allow faster shifts and be stronger to hold the added power (torque) from your turbo engines. That may be a better answer as Bjorn is thinking.
The ultimate would probably be a completely different trans - something from a much newer design car - possibly not even Fiat. But that would likely be part of a complete powertrain (engine and trans) swap.
dllubin
Don
Happy Birthday!!I I start to feel old when remember all the times when have greeted myself on birthday here
Happy birthday to me again!
Yes, these pics needed filter
Will add finger savers after a moment and someday add “Boomerang” on the right spoke
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Happy birthday Janis.
Seems like I forgot to klick the reply on this message. Better late than never so here it is:
I am almost sure there is no big different between X1/9, European Ritmo 85 and UT Mk1 gearboxes except the shift lever position (Ritmo in AU differs says Steve C. I can't see that UT internals would allow faster shiftings. The internals are compatible but they are all weak. Now I have two X1/9 trans cases and three internals to survive the upcoming season
.
The C510 (UT Mk2) is much stronger and would be the cheapest option to handle the extra load from a tuned engine. The C510 also opens up for a torsen diff. But unfortunately, building a cable mechanism is more complicated than I first thought so I will wait.
The C510 has Porsche synchros I think, so speedy shiftings is not recommended.
A modern sequencial 6 speed trans would have been nice, but 14000 EUR plus tax and shipping costs is not in my budget.
A dog kit would probably handle much more load but would be inconvenient and noisy on a road car. Not very cheap either.
Seems like I forgot to klick the reply on this message. Better late than never so here it is:
I am almost sure there is no big different between X1/9, European Ritmo 85 and UT Mk1 gearboxes except the shift lever position (Ritmo in AU differs says Steve C. I can't see that UT internals would allow faster shiftings. The internals are compatible but they are all weak. Now I have two X1/9 trans cases and three internals to survive the upcoming season
.The C510 (UT Mk2) is much stronger and would be the cheapest option to handle the extra load from a tuned engine. The C510 also opens up for a torsen diff. But unfortunately, building a cable mechanism is more complicated than I first thought so I will wait.
The C510 has Porsche synchros I think, so speedy shiftings is not recommended.
A modern sequencial 6 speed trans would have been nice, but 14000 EUR plus tax and shipping costs is not in my budget.
A dog kit would probably handle much more load but would be inconvenient and noisy on a road car. Not very cheap either.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I imagine someone somewhere at some time has figured out a cable shift arrangement for the C510. I guess the question is who?
Can the stock shifting mechanism from the original car that a C510 came from be modified to work?
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
The C510 in UT Mk2 is not cable operated, it has a rather complex link system. But to work in an X it seems to be easier to convert it to cables. I know that MR2 cables and shifters works quite well. A system from a Fiat Doblo also works. My biggest problem is that my gearbox is missing mounts for clutch hydraulic (red plate in pic) and the "up/down" mechanism on the gear selector.
My C510:
I've looked for missing parts but they are hard to find.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I did not know that (we never got those cars here). So I see what you mean now.
Definitely would help if you had all of the parts for yours. Some sort of clutch slave mount can be fabricated if you can figure out the basic location where it needs to be. The other linkage sounds more intricate. I'm surprised the parts are hard to get, that sucks.
Although it's a completely different type of trans and shifting mechanism, but back when I was into off-road racing it was common to use Porsche or VW transaxles with custom cable type shifters. Initially we made our own, but later aftermarket companies began producing them. The design was actually quite simple. There was one cable to do the "in and out" movement, and a second one for the "rotation". The cables are available as generic "push-pull" items in any length and various fittings:
The shifter itself (hand control) was built on a heim joint pivot:
The whole assembly looked something like this:
Again, that's a different system, but some of the components might be used to create your own assembly.
ng_randolph
Bjorn H
Janis
True Classic
Nothing good isn’t happening with insurance. One more expertise tomorrow.
They are going not to change whole panel but to use a lot of bondo.And attitude is like it’s my problem that someone damaged my car.
Put on the damaged area good layer of sticky bearing grease to avoid rust expanding even more.
unfortunately it will make expertise a bit messy and hard.
They are going not to change whole panel but to use a lot of bondo.And attitude is like it’s my problem that someone damaged my car.
Put on the damaged area good layer of sticky bearing grease to avoid rust expanding even more.
unfortunately it will make expertise a bit messy and hard.
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Sorry to hear Janis. That seems to be the behavior of all insurance companies all over the world. My "classic" insurance is proven to work well but doesn't apply for daily drivers.
dcioccarelli
Dominic Cioccarelli
Hi Bjorn,
I find it very interesting that the C510 gearbox is as close a relative to the standard X1/9 gearbox as the photos above indicate. When you consider that the C510 is used right up to roday in the 500X with even 6 speed applications then I think that there are quite some possibilities in this area (see: http://www.fiat500usa.com/2009/09/fiat-500-transmissions-5-or-6-speed.html). Moreover, it kind of explodes the popular myth that the X1/9 gearbox is inherently flawed: clearly it was simply evolved in more modern Fiats to handle in excess of 200 Nm of torque.
If you are going to the effort of swapping in a C510, why not opt for one of the most recent 6 speed variants?
Cheers,
Dom.
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
The late C510 6 speed does not fit on the UT or X engines. The starter is on opposite side. There are probably other differences as well.
Janis
True Classic
Some suspension/ alignment/ understanding issues:
• ~5000km done on winter wheels r13 145/70 . They were so spongy that eat up imperfections of wheel alignment. Also wear of the tires wasn’t equal in the middle and outside.
• now I have 16x7.5 195/40 front and 16x9 215/40 rear. This set tells that something isn’t good at all :
1.on highway car may change it’s direction from one side to the other like there would be a play in the rear arms or ‘ toe in’ in the rear is too big and traction is switching from one tire to the other. So I can’t get relaxed as have to be prepared to steer a bit in any moment to keep car straight. This happens on fresh and flat asphalt pavement without grooves from trucks.
Also made some hard acceleration today (not only today
), but this happened today for the first time, car started to bounce heavily from one side to the other during the acceleration.
At my understanding rear needs ~3mm toe in and front and ~0 in the front.
How much is too much?
And from which part of the wheel to the string I do measurements? From the lip of the rim? Or the “imaginary” tire outside perimeter?
If from the lip, then these measurements theoretically varies between R13 and R16 wheels a bit.
Camber isn’t adjustable on stock suspension, correct? It looks that mine have positive camber at front and negative in the rear. Is it ok or the front of my car is too light (with frunk full of trash, heavier than radiator)
• ~5000km done on winter wheels r13 145/70 . They were so spongy that eat up imperfections of wheel alignment. Also wear of the tires wasn’t equal in the middle and outside.
• now I have 16x7.5 195/40 front and 16x9 215/40 rear. This set tells that something isn’t good at all :
1.on highway car may change it’s direction from one side to the other like there would be a play in the rear arms or ‘ toe in’ in the rear is too big and traction is switching from one tire to the other. So I can’t get relaxed as have to be prepared to steer a bit in any moment to keep car straight. This happens on fresh and flat asphalt pavement without grooves from trucks.
Also made some hard acceleration today (not only today
), but this happened today for the first time, car started to bounce heavily from one side to the other during the acceleration.At my understanding rear needs ~3mm toe in and front and ~0 in the front.
How much is too much?
And from which part of the wheel to the string I do measurements? From the lip of the rim? Or the “imaginary” tire outside perimeter?
If from the lip, then these measurements theoretically varies between R13 and R16 wheels a bit.
Camber isn’t adjustable on stock suspension, correct? It looks that mine have positive camber at front and negative in the rear. Is it ok or the front of my car is too light (with frunk full of trash, heavier than radiator)