Uno Turbo blocks and possible displacement increase
- Thread starter TDeReggi
- Start date
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
You'll NEVER fully utilize 400Bhp in a 2000_ish pound car (any car) without aero on a road race course.
To be fast demands being smooth. Early days of LeMons racing, one of the drivers track day a high power car. Driver was NOT smooth and the constant complaint was the total lack of power in the LeMons X.. In time, this driver learned to stop stomping on the throttle to make up for hacky-bumpy driving.. smooth it way out, made this driver a LOT faster.
Famous story that is often shared when this topic comes up. During one of the Toyota track day promos for journalist, one of the self proclaimed GOOD moto journalist was driving Toyota's top of the go fast Supra on track fast as he possibly could. In time a tiny speck appeared in the rear view mirror and that once speck was growing larger with each turn. Turns out that speck in the rear view mirror was Dan Gurney driving Toyota's bottom of the line Corolla.. eventually went right by the moto journalist driving the Toyota Supra...
Yes, driver can make ALL the difference.
Bernice
To be fast demands being smooth. Early days of LeMons racing, one of the drivers track day a high power car. Driver was NOT smooth and the constant complaint was the total lack of power in the LeMons X.. In time, this driver learned to stop stomping on the throttle to make up for hacky-bumpy driving.. smooth it way out, made this driver a LOT faster.
Famous story that is often shared when this topic comes up. During one of the Toyota track day promos for journalist, one of the self proclaimed GOOD moto journalist was driving Toyota's top of the go fast Supra on track fast as he possibly could. In time a tiny speck appeared in the rear view mirror and that once speck was growing larger with each turn. Turns out that speck in the rear view mirror was Dan Gurney driving Toyota's bottom of the line Corolla.. eventually went right by the moto journalist driving the Toyota Supra...
Yes, driver can make ALL the difference.
Bernice
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Properly built-set up Lampredi SOHC race motor (with a burp) with a dyno rating of ~120? Bhp..?
It is NOT the peak power, it is the duration and abuse (shock loading and chassis-suspension-wheels & tires with grip)
from endurance road racing.
You'll NEVER subject any gear box to this degree of stress on public roads.
Bernice
It is NOT the peak power, it is the duration and abuse (shock loading and chassis-suspension-wheels & tires with grip)
from endurance road racing.
You'll NEVER subject any gear box to this degree of stress on public roads.
Bernice
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Sorry, I didn't think about that. -The Ut was not imported in US. The engine is hard to get even in Europe and prices are rising.
What I meant with rebuilding the 1500 was to keep it N/A but heavily tuned. I found an overhauled UT engine at a reasonable price (lucky me
) and was actually much cheaper than buying dual Webers, forged pistons, race cam etc etc and not to mention the time/cost for building it.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Completely agree. I'd even think it would be difficult to manage 300 HP in a small light car like these.
Although this is for a street car, not a race car, I generally like the rule of 10:1. So a 2000 lb car will do well with 200 hp (just using hp as a reference point, I believe in torque rather than hp). But a properly set up X could probibly handle 250 on the street pretty well.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
So true. It is not only much more expensive to build a NA 1500 SOHC to that level, but it will be very "peaky" with little torque, and not very reliable. That is the whole intent of project "Turbo X", to see how inexpensively a small/mild boost turbo could be added to a relatively stock 1500 for a street only car. What sort of torque/power curve will it deliver, how reliable will it be, and for how little money can it be done? Still in progress, but so far the budget is great and the progress is in line with the goals. Having done considerable research on it I'm expecting - compared to a equal level HP "NA" build - it will have more torque and more reliability, and cost considerably less. Naturally if you want more from it then everything goes up, but you can't even get more than that from NA.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Learning to drive a momentum car IS of absolute importance if ya wanna be a GOOD race driver. IMO, braking late as reasonable then trying to make up lost time powering out of a turn is not ideal driving.
If Steve Hoelscher could chime in on this driving habit. think it could be helpful.
While there is an aspect of road racing that is drag racing from corner to corner, it is preferred and more ideal in many ways to hold the cornering speeds high as possible after HARD braking and corner exit HARD accelerating. Idea is to use as much of the available traction and grip from the tires in corning, braking, accelerating as available from the tires. Anything less than this, driver is not good enough.
Some in Porsche 928 video from back in the day when the Lampredi engine and chassis-suspension set up with a GOOD driver at Sears Point. That Porsche 928 could NOT get around the exxe until the end of this race when the driver let off. Not the difference in driving style. The 928 is similar to a vette in a number of ways.
As for the x1/9 feeling like a vette, never can, never will as the two vehicles are completely different. Weight alone and the mid-engine configuration results in completely different feel to the driver and neither will ever be, can be identical in driver feel.
Bernice
If Steve Hoelscher could chime in on this driving habit. think it could be helpful.
While there is an aspect of road racing that is drag racing from corner to corner, it is preferred and more ideal in many ways to hold the cornering speeds high as possible after HARD braking and corner exit HARD accelerating. Idea is to use as much of the available traction and grip from the tires in corning, braking, accelerating as available from the tires. Anything less than this, driver is not good enough.
Some in Porsche 928 video from back in the day when the Lampredi engine and chassis-suspension set up with a GOOD driver at Sears Point. That Porsche 928 could NOT get around the exxe until the end of this race when the driver let off. Not the difference in driving style. The 928 is similar to a vette in a number of ways.
As for the x1/9 feeling like a vette, never can, never will as the two vehicles are completely different. Weight alone and the mid-engine configuration results in completely different feel to the driver and neither will ever be, can be identical in driver feel.
Bernice
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Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Properly set up x1/9 (LeMons racer about 1700 pounds) has no corner exit wheel spin with DOT 180 tires with a 200+ Bhp Mazda rotary IF properly set up. No LSD needed, it is much about chassis-suspension set up.
Bernice
Bernice
TDeReggi
Daily Driver
Bernice wrote: "As for the x1/9 feeling like a vette, never can, never will as the two vehicles are completely different. "
You might have taken my comment a little to literally. If I wanted to feel exactly like a Vette, Id just keep driving my Vettes. Im just saying a significant increase in low-midrange torque would go a long way towards better feeling the acceleration gforces and be more responsive. I find peak threshold speed a bit unsettling, whereas I find the power of acceleration exhilarating.
Did I just hear you say that you put a Mazda rotary engine and trans into a X19?
You might have taken my comment a little to literally. If I wanted to feel exactly like a Vette, Id just keep driving my Vettes. Im just saying a significant increase in low-midrange torque would go a long way towards better feeling the acceleration gforces and be more responsive. I find peak threshold speed a bit unsettling, whereas I find the power of acceleration exhilarating.
Did I just hear you say that you put a Mazda rotary engine and trans into a X19?
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Ok, I'll indulge you a bit...
We did that to the LeMons car quite a number of years ago.
Here it is again..
24hoursoflemons.com
Most significant problem of the power train, gear ratios and slow shifting Porsche 901 transaxle (pricy replacement bits and a bit fragile).
Solution to this problem, install a Formula Mazda Hewland transaxle to get the ratios needed and dog drive, no syncros to speedy up shifting. BTW, the PP race rotary idles about 3,000 rpm lumpy, not a lot happens below 4,500 rpm, power comes on about 5,500 to 9,500 RPM.. Low end launch, not gonna happen at all.
Since you've run Spec Miata.. It is very possible you know about the Eye Sore Racing Miata.
They are long time LeMons racing buds.. Some of my fave time at LeMons is sharing time with these folks.
One of the drivers decided to follow, not pass the Eye Sore racing Miata. Keep in mind that team has really GOOD drivers. Dave Coleman is the chassis engineer for Mazda USA..
Essentially, the LeMons rotary x1/9 are about equal performance wise
to the Eye sore Miata and this:
Down the front straight at Thunder Hill race way, the rotary x1/9 & FORD T are equal until the first corner..
FORD V8 makes torque at low rpm then Bhp, Mazda rotary makes nil torque at low rpm but rate of power is rapid.
Gearing makes up the difference essentially producing very, very similar performance with very different driving experiences.
All the cars stuff aside, none of which is any good for lap times or racing until a GOOD driver is installed into a proper car.
Bernice
We did that to the LeMons car quite a number of years ago.
Here it is again..
Fiat X1/9 Frankenstein: A Rotary-Swapped Hella Sweet Car of the Week - 24 Hours of LEMONS
It's time for another Hella Sweet Car of the Week and it's another Fiat...kind of. The Italian Stallions built a rotary-powered monster out of a Fiat X1/9.
24hoursoflemons.com
Most significant problem of the power train, gear ratios and slow shifting Porsche 901 transaxle (pricy replacement bits and a bit fragile).
Solution to this problem, install a Formula Mazda Hewland transaxle to get the ratios needed and dog drive, no syncros to speedy up shifting. BTW, the PP race rotary idles about 3,000 rpm lumpy, not a lot happens below 4,500 rpm, power comes on about 5,500 to 9,500 RPM.. Low end launch, not gonna happen at all.
Since you've run Spec Miata.. It is very possible you know about the Eye Sore Racing Miata.
One of the drivers decided to follow, not pass the Eye Sore racing Miata. Keep in mind that team has really GOOD drivers. Dave Coleman is the chassis engineer for Mazda USA..
Essentially, the LeMons rotary x1/9 are about equal performance wise
to the Eye sore Miata and this:
Down the front straight at Thunder Hill race way, the rotary x1/9 & FORD T are equal until the first corner..
FORD V8 makes torque at low rpm then Bhp, Mazda rotary makes nil torque at low rpm but rate of power is rapid.
Gearing makes up the difference essentially producing very, very similar performance with very different driving experiences.
All the cars stuff aside, none of which is any good for lap times or racing until a GOOD driver is installed into a proper car.
Bernice
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gene cooley
Autocrosser
There are other things to consider here. With the weight of the engine trans on the drive wheels and what looks like mostly higher speed turns (very few in the 25 to 30 mph range?) it's a lot more difficult to spin tires.
Also, even though the current 180 treadwear tires are excellent they still don't provide the required cornering grip (by design) to lift a tire with the engine/trans weight on them.
No doubt setup is important here, but it's not the only factor limiting wheelspin.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Road racing cornering speeds are generally higher than autocross corner speeds.
As for rear wheel spinning out of a corner, it happened lots, even with the 1500cc Lampredi race engine, and different final drive with the stock transaxle. The exxe would wheel spin on corner exit. Altering the rear spring rates and dampers cured it. After the rotary power train was installed, same problem but MORE due to a LOT more power available on corner exit. Again tweaked spring rates and dampers and ... cured it. No LSD. This is one of the advantages of a GOOD mid-engine chassis-suspension design IF properly set up.
The only real track lap time and race car speed limiter at LeMons is DOT 180 tires. R compounds tires are strictly prohibited. If real race tires were allowed at LeMons, the lap times would be a LOT shorter and the racers a LOT faster greatly increasing risk with every corner.
There is a tire cost and tire change factor. Imagine how many soft compound slicks each team would grind up after about 12+ hours of racing.. multiply that by a 100+ LeMons race cars on track.
There is no minimum weight at LeMons,. There is no max engine displacement at LeMons, There are no limitations on brakes at LeMons (yes you can run unlimited budget carbon brakes if ya like), there are no limits to chassis-suspension modifications, Any aero goes long as what ya add does not fly off while running on track. There is un-bending compliance to safety regs like roll cage and etc. Recently on board fire systems is mandatory as are Hans Devices for all drivers.
Bernice
As for rear wheel spinning out of a corner, it happened lots, even with the 1500cc Lampredi race engine, and different final drive with the stock transaxle. The exxe would wheel spin on corner exit. Altering the rear spring rates and dampers cured it. After the rotary power train was installed, same problem but MORE due to a LOT more power available on corner exit. Again tweaked spring rates and dampers and ... cured it. No LSD. This is one of the advantages of a GOOD mid-engine chassis-suspension design IF properly set up.
The only real track lap time and race car speed limiter at LeMons is DOT 180 tires. R compounds tires are strictly prohibited. If real race tires were allowed at LeMons, the lap times would be a LOT shorter and the racers a LOT faster greatly increasing risk with every corner.
There is a tire cost and tire change factor. Imagine how many soft compound slicks each team would grind up after about 12+ hours of racing.. multiply that by a 100+ LeMons race cars on track.
There is no minimum weight at LeMons,. There is no max engine displacement at LeMons, There are no limitations on brakes at LeMons (yes you can run unlimited budget carbon brakes if ya like), there are no limits to chassis-suspension modifications, Any aero goes long as what ya add does not fly off while running on track. There is un-bending compliance to safety regs like roll cage and etc. Recently on board fire systems is mandatory as are Hans Devices for all drivers.
Bernice
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gene cooley
Autocrosser
What size tires do you use?
We have almost no wheelspin with the 600 due to a relative lack of power--230? at the flywheel/1700# with driver. Most of the class runs LS motors or boosted motors with up to 550hp and currently 1850# min.
One has 700+ but his weight is about 2200.
Our plans follow the general opinion of this thread, supercharge our current 2.2 or switch to a 2.4, not much change in size just add boost. Basically keep the same size engine but build it for about 400hp to get in line with the rest of the class.
The class leader is a turbocharged rotary Bugeye, apparently with up to 450hp available but not always run at that power level. Not sure if he needs to be 1700 or 1800#.
This has been a very interesting threat to read. I have driven and built all of the choices listed here, with the exception of building a K20 conversion. Here is what I can tell you.
1. Uno Turbo Mk1 - I still have this in my 74. Much faster than a very hot 1500 with dual carbs. Way better on MPG also! Only issue I have ever run into with it was running too soft of a rear spring and having the tire contact the fender on the exit of a corner which resulted in a transmission failure which looked very similar to Bernices' picture above. Current down side of this setup, it is old. Time and technology has passed this by. I love this setup and will probably spend too much money on a refresh and better engine management, but again, remember this was new in 1990 which is now 30 years old....
2. High HP and Weight - One of my favorite cars was a very hot 1500 which ran as hot of a setup as I could get. Specifically setup for autocross, it killed everything. I have no idea what the HP was, but it was a 14:1 compression race gas (110 octain) monster in a car which weighed in at 1500lbs. For two years I held the record as the fastest auto cross car in the state of Oregon, and even held off a run by Chris Obert and Mark Pliai in their Dallara X as well. Fun times back then. This car later on went down to California, received a lot of money in suspension and eventually a K20 or K24 (can't remember) conversion. It was really damn fast. A good friend of mine, Tom Kotizan, was teaching a track day for the Lotus club (their new cars, etc) and he drove this car to an overall fast time of the day against everything else there. It was finally sold to a great guy in Australia and I have not really heard much more from him since.
3. Stupid HP and Weight - The last crazy X I raced and built was a dallara bodied Rotary powered X. Unlike the one used by Bernice, this one was setup for Hill Climbs, and the occasional fun autocross. 13b with a fiero gertrag 5 speed was used. Lots of one off parts and swear words were used to create this car. A ported 13b with a monster weber 48 sitting on top makes a lot of HP. It was a fricking bullet in a straight line, however, again as Bernice has said, getting a super light car to handle over 300 hp requires a lot of aero. At one point, I almost thought of getting a wing from the circle track guys to keep the front end down. Crazy fun.
To the original question of this post, back on page 1, my take on this is I would not bother with the old Uno Turbo parts anymore. I would instead look towards the new 500 turbo parts and use these instead. 30 years of engineering is just too much to ignore. All you have to do is look at the HP ratings for the 500 Abarth to see what I mean. 160hp and 170 Torque in stock form with lots of aftermarket to get those numbers higher.
1. Uno Turbo Mk1 - I still have this in my 74. Much faster than a very hot 1500 with dual carbs. Way better on MPG also! Only issue I have ever run into with it was running too soft of a rear spring and having the tire contact the fender on the exit of a corner which resulted in a transmission failure which looked very similar to Bernices' picture above. Current down side of this setup, it is old. Time and technology has passed this by. I love this setup and will probably spend too much money on a refresh and better engine management, but again, remember this was new in 1990 which is now 30 years old....
2. High HP and Weight - One of my favorite cars was a very hot 1500 which ran as hot of a setup as I could get. Specifically setup for autocross, it killed everything. I have no idea what the HP was, but it was a 14:1 compression race gas (110 octain) monster in a car which weighed in at 1500lbs. For two years I held the record as the fastest auto cross car in the state of Oregon, and even held off a run by Chris Obert and Mark Pliai in their Dallara X as well. Fun times back then. This car later on went down to California, received a lot of money in suspension and eventually a K20 or K24 (can't remember) conversion. It was really damn fast. A good friend of mine, Tom Kotizan, was teaching a track day for the Lotus club (their new cars, etc) and he drove this car to an overall fast time of the day against everything else there. It was finally sold to a great guy in Australia and I have not really heard much more from him since.
3. Stupid HP and Weight - The last crazy X I raced and built was a dallara bodied Rotary powered X. Unlike the one used by Bernice, this one was setup for Hill Climbs, and the occasional fun autocross. 13b with a fiero gertrag 5 speed was used. Lots of one off parts and swear words were used to create this car. A ported 13b with a monster weber 48 sitting on top makes a lot of HP. It was a fricking bullet in a straight line, however, again as Bernice has said, getting a super light car to handle over 300 hp requires a lot of aero. At one point, I almost thought of getting a wing from the circle track guys to keep the front end down. Crazy fun.
To the original question of this post, back on page 1, my take on this is I would not bother with the old Uno Turbo parts anymore. I would instead look towards the new 500 turbo parts and use these instead. 30 years of engineering is just too much to ignore. All you have to do is look at the HP ratings for the 500 Abarth to see what I mean. 160hp and 170 Torque in stock form with lots of aftermarket to get those numbers higher.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Heh, LeMons should be named The Dunlop Direzza cup series as SO many LeMons folks use this tire. Reasonable trade off of grip, cost, and all that with a DOT 180. That was a few years ago. Tires constantly change, there will surely be better tires today or in the not too distant future.
Wheels and tires are open to anything ya wanna run long as they meet the DOT rating. More than a few times when teams tried to "cheat" by doing tech with DOT tires than switching over to R-compound tires.. got caught, got booted.
We run 195-50-15" on 7" rims made to the specific offset needed to work with the suspension of the exxe.
Eye Sore Miata runs 205-50-15" on 7" rims.
~Same Dunlop tires, different size.
The 15" rims are essential due to the oversized brakes on the Rotary LeMons car. Any workable race car MUST have excellent brakes.
None of the really successful teams run absurd tires sizes, they know and understand bigger tires are not going to get them more grip.
Vast majority of LeMons cars are mechanical grip only cars. This is another speed limiter at LeMons.. yet there is zero rules on aero at LeMons for now.
The only way to get more grip with bigger tires is to apply aero to apply higher effective force on the tires to increase their grip. This is why current generation of aero centric race cars can have BIG tires that produces a LOT of grip (4+ G, cornering). Much of the current serious racing is all about aero, much less about power train output.
Bernice
Wheels and tires are open to anything ya wanna run long as they meet the DOT rating. More than a few times when teams tried to "cheat" by doing tech with DOT tires than switching over to R-compound tires.. got caught, got booted.
We run 195-50-15" on 7" rims made to the specific offset needed to work with the suspension of the exxe.
Eye Sore Miata runs 205-50-15" on 7" rims.
~Same Dunlop tires, different size.
The 15" rims are essential due to the oversized brakes on the Rotary LeMons car. Any workable race car MUST have excellent brakes.
None of the really successful teams run absurd tires sizes, they know and understand bigger tires are not going to get them more grip.
Vast majority of LeMons cars are mechanical grip only cars. This is another speed limiter at LeMons.. yet there is zero rules on aero at LeMons for now.
The only way to get more grip with bigger tires is to apply aero to apply higher effective force on the tires to increase their grip. This is why current generation of aero centric race cars can have BIG tires that produces a LOT of grip (4+ G, cornering). Much of the current serious racing is all about aero, much less about power train output.
Bernice
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
One of the great charms of properly set up turbo engines for performance street duty is drivability mixed with remarkable fuel efficiency.
What makes a properly set up turbo engines good for road duty is mid-RPM torque, not hp. Given most driving is in the mid-power band of an engine power curve and rate of change in speed is much about torque this fits well with a turbo engine.
This is one of the reasons why I've held on to a B234 engine Saab-Scania 9000 turbo all these decades (approaching 440,000 miles on the odo with one valve job, oem bottom end), it is much about mid band torque and overall drivability mixed with very reasonable fuel consumption... long as it is not run full throttle. That Saab-Scania B234/B204 has gained a reputation at LeMons as one of the essentially un-bustable engines with others like the FORD 4.9 liter, Alfa-Busso_ V6, Lexus 1UZ V-8_V8 and a few others.
forums.24hoursoflemons.com
Thus the goal of installing a Saab-Scania B234 based power train into the Lancia Scorpiacarlo at some point.
We also run a 48mm IDA on the PP rotary, that rotary can cycle a LOT of air and fuel. The inherent thirsty nature of a rotary makes the rotary X a total non-winner at LeMons, we know this, Jay and the LeMons folks know this.. but we can do most anything we want on this LeMons racer which is the only reason why I'm involved.. near total freedom to tinker. Racing is a circus for entertaining the fans, created a brand identity for marketing. Not interested in any of that at all.
IMO, Saab-Scania's Trionic is one of the best turbo engine management systems made. If that could be grafted on to the Fiat Uno Turbo engine, it would be quite a fine combo in many ways.
Bernice
What makes a properly set up turbo engines good for road duty is mid-RPM torque, not hp. Given most driving is in the mid-power band of an engine power curve and rate of change in speed is much about torque this fits well with a turbo engine.
This is one of the reasons why I've held on to a B234 engine Saab-Scania 9000 turbo all these decades (approaching 440,000 miles on the odo with one valve job, oem bottom end), it is much about mid band torque and overall drivability mixed with very reasonable fuel consumption... long as it is not run full throttle. That Saab-Scania B234/B204 has gained a reputation at LeMons as one of the essentially un-bustable engines with others like the FORD 4.9 liter, Alfa-Busso_ V6, Lexus 1UZ V-8_V8 and a few others.
Most Reliable Engine for swapping (Page 2) — Lemons Tech — The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums
Most Reliable Engine for swapping (Page 2) — Lemons Tech — The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums —
forums.24hoursoflemons.com
Thus the goal of installing a Saab-Scania B234 based power train into the Lancia Scorpiacarlo at some point.
We also run a 48mm IDA on the PP rotary, that rotary can cycle a LOT of air and fuel. The inherent thirsty nature of a rotary makes the rotary X a total non-winner at LeMons, we know this, Jay and the LeMons folks know this.. but we can do most anything we want on this LeMons racer which is the only reason why I'm involved.. near total freedom to tinker. Racing is a circus for entertaining the fans, created a brand identity for marketing. Not interested in any of that at all.
IMO, Saab-Scania's Trionic is one of the best turbo engine management systems made. If that could be grafted on to the Fiat Uno Turbo engine, it would be quite a fine combo in many ways.
Bernice
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Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Lots of B234 available here in Sweden almost for free. Just like you say they are very robust and easy to tune. 700-800hp is not unusual even on street cars here. There is a company here called "Trollspeed" that specialized on Saab engines and they've done some great build (such as Per Eklunds monster engine in his Pikes Peak car). However most people replace the ECU with another fantastic Swedish product: MaxxECU. This ECU gives you so much more flexibility and options compared to the Trionic. I have MaxxECU on my X as well.
I had a Saab 93 Viggen many years ago and this is one of the cars I miss the most. It was Swedish car making at its absolute best. Many swedes like me remember Saab with a tear in the eye from the good old days before GM destroyed it.
F**k GM!
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
By chance was that this car?
I remember it when the prior owner had it (the one that converted it to Honda power). I had some pics of it sitting in a parking area during one of the Monterey Week events. It was the first time I saw a engine swapped, race style X for the street. Actually the inspiration for me to buy my first X.
Do you mean a complete 500 swap like Tony has done? Based on his experiences it seems to be more effort than it is worth - no disrespect to Tony or you. But sometimes the newer technology makes them almost impossible to swap, and it is more than just the electronics. Otherwise I completely agree that using newer technology is a definite plus. However some choices will be better than others because of the specific technology they utilize. I think newer engines with a generally better design, and made for boost from the factory, are ideal so long as they do not also have extremely sophisticated systems that require all sorts of advanced controls. The threads discussing engine swap options have listed a few good examples. And I get that many people prefer to keep a Fiat on a Fiat. But in this case I don't think it is the best option. Just my opinion.