Uno Turbo blocks and possible displacement increase

There are a **** ton of Fiat motors at wrecking yards from crashed cars with few takers as the engines are well made and not exactly wearing out quickly. Right now there is a glut of them available but they will start dumping them as there is little market for them with the car no longer being sold in the US and the numbers sold never having been high to start with.
 
Hi Bjorn,

note that the Multi Air is a pretty special beast. Whilst most VVT systems simply have two different profiles on the cam and use a solenoid to switch between them, the Multi Air is essentially a fully "mappable" cam allowing for essentially any profile adjustment (by hydraulically controlling the valve timing). That said, I just had a quick look and there do seem to be some after market ECUs that support Multi Air now:



Cheers,
Dom.

Sorry, wrong link above. Here is the correct one:



Dom.
 
Hi Bjorn,

note that the Multi Air is a pretty special beast. Whilst most VVT systems simply have two different profiles on the cam and use a solenoid to switch between them, the Multi Air is essentially a fully "mappable" cam allowing for essentially any profile adjustment (by hydraulically controlling the valve timing). That said, I just had a quick look and there do seem to be some after market ECUs that support Multi Air now:



Cheers,
Dom.

Sadly both are still a piggyback and not actually running the engine, it appears to be a very complete means of manipulating the sensor data to the OE processor to get the main processor to perform differently based on adjusted input data. Tricky and meets CARB.

There is still the problem of the rest of the systems the computer is wanting to play with which was the crux of the problem Tony has been dealing with on his two swaps.
 
I know nothing about Fiat's MultiAir system, so this probibly doesn't apply. But I wonder if it might be possible to figure out a "bypass" for it, to allow running the engine with 'fixed' cams? This has been done for many other engines (non-Fiat/non-MultiAir) with complex VVT when used in swaps or where other performance mods require the VVT to be disabled. Some of them do it mechanically, others hydraulically, still others electronically, depending upon the design of that particular system. But basically they are locking out the cams in order to get around having to figure out a way to control them as intended. Naturally this defeats the benefits of having a VVT technology, but it allows the use of the engine that otherwise wasn't practical to do.
 
To me, that is almost like planning to install an Alfa V6 and then chopping two cylinders off because it won‘t fit.
VVT is an integral part of a modern engine‘s character (though I don‘t know the 500 engine).
On our X1/9 engines, one big choice to make that is always a huge compromise is cam selection.
We have been given this great technology of the infinitely adjustable camshaft, which is simply awesome.
No way would I disable that.
I‘d choose a different engine before I would do that.
 
To me, that is almost like planning to install an Alfa V6 and then chopping two cylinders off because it won‘t fit.
VVT is an integral part of a modern engine‘s character (though I don‘t know the 500 engine).
On our X1/9 engines, one big choice to make that is always a huge compromise is cam selection.
We have been given this great technology of the infinitely adjustable camshaft, which is simply awesome.
No way would I disable that.
I‘d choose a different engine before I would do that.
I agree. However there might be lots of other circumstances at play, depending upon the situation. One is that some of those engines were prone to VVT failures, which lead to terminal engine failure, so the bypass was a means of avoiding that catastrophe (keeping the original engine in the car it came with). Another might be if someone already has the engine on hand (for a swap) but not able to make the VVT work due to the complexity of the control systems. In a earlier post someone mentioned they would like to use the New 500 engine for a X swap as a means of keeping a Fiat in a Fiat. Often a sentiment like that seems to overpower other logic, so it might be a viable solution to satisfy them. And apparently there are some VVT engines that cannot be modified for significant power increases due to the nature of the VVT, so bypassing it is the only way to get big performance. The aftermarket comes up with all sorts of solutions for all sorts of reasons.

But your comment is the point I was making earlier, as to why I would not choose a New 500 engine for a X swap. It simply isn't worth the required effort for the result.
 
GM has yet to deliver a volume production high performance engine even close to the Lampredi SOHC or Twin Cam.

This GM 1.4 turbo Eco-Tech has a block that not impressive in any way. With a bore of 74mm and stroke of 81.3mm makes this a low rpm torque configuration. Adding to this problem it has short connecting rods of 130mm. 74mm bore is not ideal for burn as is the long stroke of 81.3mm. This makes a stroke to con rod ratio of 1.6, gonna rev like a tractor motor. Sort of ok for a low rpm turbo motor, but it will never be a performance aspirated motor like the SOHC Lampredi motor.

The Lampredi SOHC motor (1300cc to 1600cc versions) has a basic bore of 86.5mm which is near the idea diameter for burn. The 1300cc has a stroke of 55.5mm, and con rods are 120mm. This results in a stroke to con rod ratio of 2.16 !!!, only real race motors have this. It is why the stock 1300cc engine and be run to 8,000 RPM with cast iron con rods for a very long time and not explode. Much has to do with the lower stress due to the mechanical configuration. The 1500cc variant is not much lesser, bore of 86.5mm, stroke of 63.9mm, con rods of 128.5mm results in a stroke to con rod ratio of 2.01, still very high for a mass production engine. This is one of the reasons why the Lampredi SOHC motor is such a enduring rev for ever engine.

This coupled with the cam on buckets valve train makes the Lampredi motor special. It's limitations are displacement and combustion chamber shape and two valves per cylinder.

This Lampredi SOHC motor is absolutely capable endurance race motor as proven by the Lampredi SOHC LeMons race motor.
This same Lampredi SOHC motor that has gone two full LeMons races and more will go into the 74' at some point.

Oh, for fans of Hemi combustion chamber heads, these have inherent burn flame prorogation issues. Much to do with the distance from the centra spark plug to piston top distance. This is why twin spark plug hemi cylinder heads work better than the single spark plug versions. In the Lampredi twin cam, it has a two BIG valve pent roof combustion chamber, one of the many reasons why this designs has endured and worked in ways no hemi cylinder head can. The four valve pent roof combustion chamber cylinder head that has become SO common today is also found in the Rolls Royce Merlin aero engine.

Much of what is required to make a uber performance engine is very well known and understood today, marketing goals and demands and such are the driving factors as to what goes into mass production. CNC machine tool technology, materials technology and more is what allows previously well known performance engine inventions to put into mass production at very low per unit cost. The design process often happens by modeling on powerful computing with prototypes made by computer controlled manufacturing methods in short time reducing the development cycle. Modern race engines are a prime example of this to meet and game the rules of any race series.

As for GM motors.. they do not have a good record being endurance raced at LeMons. Sure, there have been teams that have put a new GM, LS series crate performance motor into their LeMons racer only to have that LS motor grenade. The Only GM motor that has any reasonable record of not exploding in LeMons endurance race duty has been the Buick 3.8L v6.

The Fiat 500 multi air is a technological marvel. Inventive idea from Professor Rinaldo Rinolfi (aka, known as the father of the common rail diesel), Multi Air (MA) demanded a series of technological innovations to work from the electronic valve train to the much involved engine management system. Time from concept to production took decades of technical work. Parts of this were licenses to BMW (vvt) to fund development of MA at a time when GM would not give MA development a penny. MA's goal was to increase fuel efficiency partly by reducing pumping losses and tighter per cycle burn via engine management. It was not intended to be a performance motor concept, but it is possible. While it is possible to graft the Fiat 500 MA power train into an exxe, it would demand integrating the entire power train system and more into the exxe. The results would be a less then ideal performance power train upgrade for the exxe.

IMO, there are FAR better power trains that can be installed into the X chassis once brand loyalty is discarded and the inherent goodness of a power train being the prime driving factor.


Bernice




LOTs more than simple displacement. There is significant stuff like
It might be interesting to see if the GM 1.4 turbo motor has any similarities to the 500 motor. Not sure if there is any crossover from the GM/Fiat association from the early 2000s.
Both have iron blocks, kind of an oddity when aluminum blocks are in favor.
The GM 1.4 has a normal twincam 4 valve layout. It has variable valve timing, and a simple (for these days) port injection system rather than direct injection. Most or all GM 1.4s are turbo.
There is a lot of aftermarket support.
Looks like it could be built in any form from a simple fixed cam, carbed, crank triggered NA configuration to a fully built turbo or supercharged race motor.
Does it fit? Don't know.
 
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Hi Bjorn

Alex was the one who put the fiberglass on it after I had sold it to him. I remember him using Zeus fasteners to do the job as with a race car you do find yourself taking things on and off quite often! I still keep in touch with Alex, even though he lives in Europe now, and can drop him a line and ask if you need to know. Thanks.
If this kit is still available I would certainly consider putting the saw in my rust free exxie.
 
To me, that is almost like planning to install an Alfa V6 and then chopping two cylinders off because it won‘t fit.
VVT is an integral part of a modern engine‘s character (though I don‘t know the 500 engine).
On our X1/9 engines, one big choice to make that is always a huge compromise is cam selection.
We have been given this great technology of the infinitely adjustable camshaft, which is simply awesome.
No way would I disable that.
I‘d choose a different engine before I would do that.
Agreed.
Which is why I suggested the T-Jet which is a more conventional VVT based system and likely can be controlled by a stand alone system, something that is available and possible. The FIRE engines unfortunately share the GM bore and stroke ratio (not exactly but close) and are not great rev’ers like the over (edit, doh) square X engine we all appreciate.
 
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Agreed.
Which is why I suggested the T-Jet which is a more conventional VVT based system and likely can be controlled by a stand alone system, something that is available and possible. The FIRE engines unfortunately share the GM bore and stroke ratio (not exactly but close) and are not great rev’ers like the under square X engine we all appreciate.

Hmmmmm, "over" square X engine?
 
Uh, That would cost me like like 2000 USD incl. shipping, tax and custom fees. A full Dallara kit would be like 800 in here in EU. And MWB don't even guarantee that it fits :-(
After following BuilderCreator on Youtube I've decided to do it from scratch myself.That will be the project for winter 2021/22. It looks like the shapes are not that very difficult to recreate.
 
That would cost me like like 2000 USD incl. shipping, tax and custom fees. A full Dallara kit would be like 800 in here in EU.
Agreed. And it goes the other way around as well; if I wanted to buy a body kit from Europe it would be ridiculously expensive once everything is considered.
 
Uh, That would cost me like like 2000 USD incl. shipping, tax and custom fees. A full Dallara kit would be like 800 in here in EU. And MWB don't even guarantee that it fits :-(
After following BuilderCreator on Youtube I've decided to do it from scratch myself.That will be the project for winter 2021/22. It looks like the shapes are not that very difficult to recreate.
You might need these, sorry that am flowing off topic also.

Photos are stolen somewhere here on xweb
631981AC-A581-4471-B3B2-2357E880D2AC.png
C248A8D1-BFE3-448B-81A6-570489F9210D.png
 
To me, that is almost like planning to install an Alfa V6 and then chopping two cylinders off because it won‘t fit.
VVT is an integral part of a modern engine‘s character (though I don‘t know the 500 engine).
On our X1/9 engines, one big choice to make that is always a huge compromise is cam selection.
We have been given this great technology of the infinitely adjustable camshaft, which is simply awesome.
No way would I disable that.
I‘d choose a different engine before I would do that.
In fact you can squeeze in a Busso V6 in a X.
I wouldn't do it but it is possible. Personally I prefer the SOHC and it can be made more reliable by replacing MAF, sensors, ignition etc and replace the ECU and turbo (UT) to get serious power from it. Of course I would like to have X-flow, 16 valves, DOHC etc but that would make it much more complex. -An aftermarket ECU makes it less complex.
Luckily I found an UT engine and it performs great. A complete drivetrain from a Fiat 500 Abarth would have been my next best choice. Fire or Multi Air, they both seems to fit easily in the X engine bay (I have a picture but I am not sure it's ok to post it). Maybe they are not as rev happy as the SOHC but they perform well.
I Noted that there are some ODB2 addons for tuning the Multi Air engine. I have a similar system (BSR) on my VW Golf R but I am not very happy with it. The system is very limited as you cannot control it, and it is completely locked to a specific car (locked by VIN). It handles the engine only and not the gearbox (DSG) wich in return reduce the torque so the tuning is even a little bit meaningless. I've learnt that an ECU/tune that handles the whole drivetrain is essential to get the most out from engine AND gearbox.
Generally I don't like modern engines. They tend to be weak by design and small tolerances. That's probable the reason why many tuners work with old stuff like 2JZ, Barra, Volvo B23 etc. Old cars might rust but their engines are built to last.

I hope to see this Swedish exxie with a Busso V6 IRL sometime
1608936284059.png
 
I believe our member @rachaeljf has been working on a V6 Alfa swap into a X? Or she did so in the past? Can't recall, but she is familiar with the details required for it.

As for "modern" engines. Not sure if this means 'modern' or not, but I'd love to have a all aluminum, 2L 4-cyl, crossflow twincam 4-valve head, EFI, turbo engine in a X, with a transmission to handle it.
 
I believe our member @rachaeljf has been working on a V6 Alfa swap into a X? Or she did so in the past? Can't recall, but she is familiar with the details required for it.

As for "modern" engines. Not sure if this means 'modern' or not, but I'd love to have a all aluminum, 2L 4-cyl, crossflow twincam 4-valve head, EFI, turbo engine in a X, with a transmission to handle it.

That car sold last month...
 
IMO, there are FAR better power trains that can be installed into the X chassis once brand loyalty is discarded and the inherent goodness of a power train being the prime driving factor.

Hi Bernice. I would love to hear your list of alternative drive trains. Might be worth creating a new post vs. hijacking this one.

Thanks!
 
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