Midwest front anti sway bar

[fiatfactory]

There is barely 1000KM on the poly ones and already deformed and seem to have gotten softer.

If they are the yellow ones from VAS, they are just rubbish and a total waste of money.

There are many threads on the forum about these yellow poly bushing failing... search a thread with the title "spooky handling" or similar

SteveC

 

[Bobkat]

If they are the yellow ones from VAS, they are just rubbish and a total waste of money.

There are many threads on the forum about these yellow poly bushing failing... search a thread with the title "spooky handling" or similar

SteveC

those are the ones. I will go back to oem on radius rod and my own on the control arm.

 

[Bobkat]

The stock lower inner front control arm bushing is made of quite firm rubber, you'd be best using OEM. The same bush is used on some Fiat light commercial vehicles and they are quite easy to source the original bushings. If you look at the design of the front end, that lower inner bush actually needs to distort a little as the suspension travels up and down, it's not a straight up pivoting motion.

SteveC

I have just printed a first set of my own Out of TPU. Will see how it goes. Can always print harder or softer.

 

[fiatfactory]

OEM on the control arm is made by AEGES (not sure of the spelling right now, it's almost midnight here - waiting for the Indy 500 to start - but I can check in the morning on the packaging) and really is quite firm rubber.

Id use the rubber inner control arm bush, and urethane on the brake reaction rod , the opposite of what you just suggested


SteveC

 

[Bobkat]

The simple rule is never ever use a shop to do your wheel alignment that sells tyres... if you think about it, it's in their best interest to wear the tyres out as quickly as possible so they can sell you another set!

I use a guy who only does suspension repairs and alignments - he doesn't sell tyres.

The week before a round of the state rally championship he's always booked out with rally cars, likewise the week before a meet at the local racetrack he's always booked out as most of the competitors use him...

or learn to do it yourself.

SteveC

I used to have a guy that set up our cars for the salt flats but he retired and sold to Napa. I am setting myself up to do my own. Also making my own tools to do it. Good learning experience.

 

[Bobkat]

 

[Dr.Jeff]

There's a surprisingly wide range of difference in the "softness" of urethanes. Several years ago I was talking to one of the major urethane manufacturers at a trade show about duros and product design. He gave me a neat set of duro "samples"; several pieces molded into something of a 'dogbone' shape, starting from the softest duro and each one the next duro level up. Just feeling them in your hands it is amazing how different they are, from extremely soft (much softer than any rubber) to extremely hard (rock hard). So that will make a huge difference in how a suspension part performs and lasts in any given application.

I agree that the trailing arm (torque strut) bushings tend to wear and distort much faster than the main suspension arm bushings. So I'd go with a more durable and firmer material for the trailing arms than the main arms.

As for the amount of caster change that's needed to "center" the front wheels in the fenders, it might be more than you think. Consider that the castor adjustment is done with shims in front of the rubber bushings on the trailing arms. And those shims are basically regular thickness washers. So a small change there makes a significant difference in castor. Now consider the wheel tends to be as much as 15-20 mm out of center....that's a huge change in the castor adjustment to get it centered. Obviously centering the wheels is NOT the normal goal or correct aspect of setting the alignment. But when you run wide wheels/tires and lower the car there is a significant interference with the front lower corner of the fender as a result of the wheel not being centered. So you either need to cut the fender or move the wheel back. And that's where the alignment gets involved.

 

[Bobkat]

Yes there is a range in the stiffness of the polyurethane and the TPU thermal filaments.

The yellow ones I have / had are very soft, softer than the rubber oem. I do understand all the " spooky handling " posts. I am not sure if they broke down in 1000km or not but seem way softer then when they went in.

The cool thing about 3D printing is you can design in different densities through out a design like well made bump stop on offroad parts. That and along with different durometers of of the fillament makes for a lot of flexibility in what can be make. Only takes 1 hour to print 4 so time to play around. The ones I have printed have a more flexible outer part with a solid central tapered part. I pint these things hot with a large 1.2mm nozzle so it ends up being a solid piece with no layer bonding issues. Would be as dense as poured bushings.

I am going to try to dial at in with the existing OEM suspension with printed/ new bushings, then try my hand at making some adjustable arms to make tweaking easier .

As to the caster, I don't really care about centering the wheel. Bigger wheel and tires make it less noticeable. I am more concerned with getting as close to spec and just clearing the fenders. I had it that way before my bad alignment.

There's a surprisingly wide range of difference in the "softness" of urethanes. Several years ago I was talking to one of the major urethane manufacturers at a trade show about duros and product design. He gave me a neat set of duro "samples"; several pieces molded into something of a 'dogbone' shape, starting from the softest duro and each one the next duro level up. Just feeling them in your hands it is amazing how different they are, from extremely soft (much softer than any rubber) to extremely hard (rock hard). So that will make a huge difference in how a suspension part performs and lasts in any given application.

I agree that the trailing arm (torque strut) bushings tend to wear and distort much faster than the main suspension arm bushings. So I'd go with a more durable and firmer material for the trailing arms than the main arms.

As for the amount of caster change that's needed to "center" the front wheels in the fenders, it might be more than you think. Consider that the castor adjustment is done with shims in front of the rubber bushings on the trailing arms. And those shims are basically regular thickness washers. So a small change there makes a significant difference in castor. Now consider the wheel tends to be as much as 15-20 mm out of center....that's a huge change in the castor adjustment to get it centered. Obviously centering the wheels is NOT the normal goal or correct aspect of setting the alignment. But when you run wide wheels/tires and lower the car there is a significant interference with the front lower corner of the fender as a result of the wheel not being centered. So you either need to cut the fender or move the wheel back. And that's where the alignment gets involved.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I used to have a guy that set up our cars for the salt flats but he retired and sold to Napa. I am setting myself up to do my own. Also making my own tools to do it. Good learning experience.

View attachment 73781

A few years ago I saw a really neat alignment setup while I was traveling in Europe. What I liked about it was the simplicity of the design, yet still able to do full four wheel alignments for all angles/adjustments. And it seemed to be pretty accurate. Basically what I'd call a "home version" of the professional laser type machines.

When I returned from the trip I started researching the system I saw. I could only find two companies offering anything close to it. One of the two wasn't nearly as well developed, and the other also had room for some improvement. And both were in Europe, making them too costly with shipping to the US.

Over the next two years I had several discussions with alignment equipment manufacturers to see if they might be interested in something like it for the US market. However I was told it would be too affordable, making their outrageously expensive equipment not competitive. But the engineers agreed the principle was good and it should work great. So I set about designing a version of what I saw, incorporating some suggestions offered by the engineers, and a few changes based on other equipment I saw. I did a cost estimate and realized it could be produced for only about $100-125 (in 2010 dollars), and therefore could be sold for under $200.

So I took the concept to a few manufacturing/fabricating facilities to see about having it made in sufficient numbers to market. Some didn't have the time, others felt it wasn't in their scope, etc. After that I got busy with other projects and forgot about it. However several months later I saw that one of the companies I talked to was advertising it themselves. But since I hadn't given them all of the needed information and specifications they weren't doing it correctly. Basically they tried to make it too cheaply and left out several vital aspects of the design. Plus they were trying to sell it for a ridiculously high price. Naturally it flopped.

I've since retired and not interested in starting any new business ventures. But someday I still want to make one for myself. However I have a excellent alignment guy that I use for all of my vehicles so I don't really need it. My guy started in his teens working at a small independant alignment shop as an assistant to the owner (basically a one man operation). The owner since retired and sold the business to him (then in his late twenties). Now he's in his 50's and still running the same small shop with the help from a young assistant.

 

[Bryce-o-rama]

I have just printed a first set of my own Out of TPU. Will see how it goes. Can always print harder or softer.

What 3D printer are you using?

 

[Bobkat]

These bushings were printed on a modified Wanhao D9500 in an large enclosure. It can print very hot and with large nozzles and is a direct drive at the print head so can handle very soft filament. If i need a part to be strong or large this my go to printer.

 

[Bobkat]

What 3D printer are you using?

 

[Bobkat]

So installed all the new 3D bushings, on the radius rods , control arm and sway bar. A million times better!

But the bad alignment continues. So found another ****up on the **** alignment. I have vas coilovers with stainless

CNCd camber bolts. These are so precise thst they spin on with a flick. Take a look at the lobes. There is only one way to put them on. You may get them 180 out but these were pounded on at 80 degrees then new marks drawn on with a sharpie.!!!!!

 

[Dr.Jeff]

The cool thing about 3D printing is you can design in different densities through out a design like well made bump stop on offroad parts. That and along with different durometers of of the fillament makes for a lot of flexibility in what can be make. Only takes 1 hour to print 4 so time to play around. The ones I have printed have a more flexible outer part with a solid central tapered part. I pint these things hot with a large 1.2mm nozzle so it ends up being a solid piece with no layer bonding issues. Would be as dense as poured bushings.

These bushings were printed on a modified Wanhao D9500 in an large enclosure. It can print very hot and with large nozzles and is a direct drive at the print head so can handle very soft filament. If i need a part to be strong or large this my go to printer.

Very cool stuff. I'm fascinated by what can be done with the 3D printer.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

The intent was always a bent bracket. Just had to work out the spacing. The tab was just me trying design around some bushings I already had.

View attachment 73635

I'm curious how the sway bar will fit using these "combination" mounting brackets. It seems by moving the bar's mounts to the same location as the trailing arms (yellow arrows, pic below), that also moves the other ends of the bar too far away from their intended mounting points on the suspension arms (red circles). I assume it will require a different sway bar design?

 

[Bobkat]

I'm curious how the sway bar will fit using these "combination" mounting brackets. It seems by moving the bar's mounts to the same location as the trailing arms (yellow arrows, pic below), that also moves the other ends of the bar too far away from their intended mounting points on the suspension arms (red circles). I assume it will require a different sway bar design?

View attachment 73813

The combination brackets will not change the sway bar or where it attaches to the at the control arm. It will basically replace those aftermarket blocks that relocate the front mounts so there will be no drilling through the body at thin metal place.

 

[Bobkat]

Very cool stuff. I'm fascinated by what can be done with the 3D printer.

I really do print a lot of car related parts now, The entire intake from Air box to manifold will be printed on the motor swap. Even the the gaskets for my ITB intake design. The materials Selection is getting so good now. Some of the high stress parts will just be limited prototype parts but it is surprising how much simple plastic parts can take if printed right.

I am just printing a design I did for a friends heavily modified mr2 to take the slop out of the steering column spline. Plastic works perfectly in this application. Just tweaking the design to make it easier to install.

 

[Bobkat]

Swapped out the bushings to the Printed ones and just did a quick caster and camber adjustment and the toe came back closer to spec. And what a difference, still needs adjustment but feels 1000% more solid an planted. Here are the yellows i took out. Toast.

So that is printed sway bar bushings, printed control are bushings and new stiffer rubber radius rod bushings.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

and new stiffer rubber radius rod bushings

Are you referring to new radius rods with the universal style bushings (like in your earlier pic in post #50)? Or are you still using the factory rods and donut style bushings?

 

[Jonohhh]

Yes there is a range in the stiffness of the polyurethane and the TPU thermal filaments.

The yellow ones I have / had are very soft, softer than the rubber oem. I do understand all the " spooky handling " posts. I am not sure if they broke down in 1000km or not but seem way softer then when they went in.

The cool thing about 3D printing is you can design in different densities through out a design like well made bump stop on offroad parts. That and along with different durometers of of the fillament makes for a lot of flexibility in what can be make. Only takes 1 hour to print 4 so time to play around. The ones I have printed have a more flexible outer part with a solid central tapered part. I pint these things hot with a large 1.2mm nozzle so it ends up being a solid piece with no layer bonding issues. Would be as dense as poured bushings.

I am going to try to dial at in with the existing OEM suspension with printed/ new bushings, then try my hand at making some adjustable arms to make tweaking easier .

As to the caster, I don't really care about centering the wheel. Bigger wheel and tires make it less noticeable. I am more concerned with getting as close to spec and just clearing the fenders. I had it that way before my bad alignment.

Agreed here. I'm glad someone's had time to mess with it. I've been eager to 3d print some tpu/poly mounts for a variety of applications. Like you said, the design flexibility, tuning of stiffness in specific directions, and excellent properties of printed TPU make it a really neat option to play around with custom designs.