Timing Keeps Slipping

[Tavalin]

It is not obvious to me how you could burn up the distributor. I don't think even connecting the pickup coil across the battery would do that since it is a very high impedance. Can you describe what you did so the rest of us can avoid doing the same in the future?

When I put the cap back on from verifying that the rotor was still pointing at number four plug I must have not put the clips all the was on. When I attempted to start the engine the one clip failed and the cap popped up and the clip fell into the distributor. I heard a crackling noise and stopped trying to start the engine. Now, the engine just turns over and tries to start with a small sputter here and there but nothing is really getting to the plugs.
I should have taken a break but I am stubborn and wanted it finished.
I don’t really know if it is burned up or just plain broken but something is wrong with the distributor.
Dumb mistake that could have been avoided.
Mike

 

[lookforjoe]

When I put the cap back on from verifying that the rotor was still pointing at number four plug I must have not put the clips all the was on. When I attempted to start the engine the one clip failed and the cap popped up and the clip fell into the distributor. I heard a crackling noise and stopped trying to start the engine. Now, the engine just turns over and tries to start with a small sputter here and there but nothing is really getting to the plugs.
I should have taken a break but I am stubborn and wanted it finished.
I don’t really know if it is burned up or just plain broken but something is wrong with the distributor.
Dumb mistake that could have been avoided.
Mike

If you just damaged the pickup wheel and hall sensor I can help you there. I still have the originals from when I converted my distributor for a newer ignition system. I think the pickup or trigger wheel is held in by a circlip, and then a very small barrel that locates it on the shaft. With that removed, the winding can be unscrewed from the inner base & replaced.

I have all those bits in a zip lock shown here - I just have to find it

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Mike, I think what happened is exactly what Huss just described. However yours will likely look different from what is in his picture. I believe your distributor has a "star" looking trigger wheel under the rotor (see pic below). It has four little spider legs or prongs on it. Almost all of my electronic distributors had bent prongs on that trigger wheel from the very same cause. Those clips that secure the cap will flop inward and contact the prongs (the little legs on the "star" shaped wheel), bending them if the engine is cranked with the cap off. I was able to straighten the bent ones on mine (they weren't too bad), but it might depend on how badly yours got damaged. If those legs are bent then the spark won't get triggered, or at least not at the correct times. So no ignition or very rough ignition. The trigger wheel (star) can be replaced as Huss says, but you should remove the distributor and disassemble part of it.

I think your distributor has a trigger wheel that looks something like this. However with four legs instead of six (this example is for a Porsche 6 cylinder engine):

When the cap clips fall inward they contact and bend these legs:

 

[Tavalin]

Mike, I think what happened is exactly what Huss just described. However yours will likely look different from what is in his picture. I believe your distributor has a "star" looking trigger wheel under the rotor (see pic below). It has four little spider legs or prongs on it. Almost all of my electronic distributors had bent prongs on that trigger wheel from the very same cause. Those clips that secure the cap will flop inward and contact the prongs (the little legs on the "star" shaped wheel), bending them if the engine is cranked with the cap off. I was able to straighten the bent ones on mine (they weren't too bad), but it might depend on how badly yours got damaged. If those legs are bent then the spark won't get triggered, or at least not at the correct times. So no ignition or very rough ignition. The trigger wheel (star) can be replaced as Huss says, but you should remove the distributor and disassemble part of it.

I think your distributor has a trigger wheel that looks something like this. However with four legs instead of six (this example is for a Porsche 6 cylinder engine):

View attachment 25145

When the cap clips fall inward they contact and bend these legs:

View attachment 25146

Dr. Jeff,
That is what I have and that makes sense.

I am just so frustrated trying to troubleshoot issues that I just want to replace the whole assembly instead of trying to fix what is wrong. I don’t know if I have the skills to tear apart the distributor and put it back correctly.
Vick has a good system that I might go with and a new coil to make the X1/9 more stock. Currently I have a muscle car coil. The Vick system would give me all new stuff to be confident that I wouldn’t have any issues that I might have missed. The tensioner issue taught me that sometimes it is better to just start from scratch and move on to the next issue. I think there is less risk to just pull the distributor and replace it with a new system than to pull the distributor tear it down and hope nothing else is wrong. Then doing that process over again.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

If you just damaged the pickup wheel and hall sensor I can help you there. I still have the originals from when I converted my distributor for a newer ignition system. I think the pickup or trigger wheel is held in by a circlip, and then a very small barrel that locates it on the shaft. With that removed, the winding can be unscrewed from the inner base & replaced.

I have all those bits in a zip lock shown here - I just have to find it

That is a great gesture and much appreciated. Dr. Jeff noticed that your part are different from the ones in Gary’s X. I am just going to go with a whole new system. I don’t know what else might me wrong. This car has been a challenge at every move. Some parts are correct while some are not. Don’t want to take that chance anymore.
After I change out the distributor I am going to reset then timing again. I am going to be an expert on setting the X1/9 timing at this rate...lol
Thanks again,
Mike

 

[kmead]

That is a great gesture and much appreciated. Dr. Jeff noticed that your part are different from the ones in Gary’s X. I am just going to go with a whole new system. I don’t know what else might me wrong. This car has been a challenge at every move. Some parts are correct while some are not. Don’t want to take that chance anymore.
After I change out the distributor I am going to reset then timing again. I am going to be an expert on setting the X1/9 timing at this rate...lol
Thanks again,
Mike

The items in the plastic bag are the parts you need and are identical to the parts you have FYI.

Hussein modded his actual distributor body using Volvo parts.

 

[Jefco]

Hussein modded his actual distributor body using Volvo parts.

To go with the LH2.2 (or does he have LH2.4? he lists both) engine management system, he has parts from the companion Volvo "Easy K" ignition for it's advance control.

 

[Tavalin]

I ordered two parts from Vick, an electronic distributor assembly (the whole thing) and a coil (matching the new distributor). I will reset the timing and replace the distributor and the coil when the parts arrive and hopefully my issues will all be solved.
I do have a question. I have the engine mount on the timing belt side and would like to replace it. However, it seems to be very difficult due to a bracket that is attached to the old engine mount.
Is there a simple way to replace the mount?

Almost there... OMG!!! Couldn’t have gotten this far without all of your help and mentorship. Gary is pacing the floor waiting for me to get “his” X1/9 back running. Poor guy, watching his dumb father try and fail so many times. I am using this to teach him to never give up. Always learn and keep moving forward.

Thanks again for the mentorship and generosity from everyone here in the XWeb.

I will post pic and vent my frustrations again real soon...
Mike

 

[lookforjoe]

Are you referring to the snail mount, that has the spring tensioner in it? If so, would have made sense to do it while the belt was off, since that will be required for the removal of the mount bracket, then the mount (bushing) can be pressed in. If that’s not what you mean, please add a pic as I’m not sure what else you could mean

 

[Tavalin]

Are you referring to the snail mount, that has the spring tensioner in it? If so, would have made sense to do it while the belt was off, since that will be required for the removal of the mount bracket, then the mount (bushing) can be pressed in. If that’s not what you mean, please add a pic as I’m not sure what else you could mean

Lookforjoe,
That’s it!!! I am taking the belt back off the ensure the timing is close to perfect and while in there I thought that I would replace the mount too. Only makes sense to me. I have a whole new snail mount, see pic.
So I braced the engine with my jack and wood but couldn’t figure out how the thing comes out. The mount itself looks to be also mounted to a metal bracket then the engine. I don’t know. Maybe it is easier than I am making it.
Please help. Remember pics in crayon only. Former Marine Staff Sergeant.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Jefco]

Mounts to the cooling jacket plate with 3 bolts.
Belt tensioner just slides out and carries over to new bracket.

 

[Tavalin]

View attachment 25204 View attachment 25205 Mounts to the cooling jacket plate with 3 bolts.
Belt tensioner just slides out and carries over to new bracket.

Jefco,
Perfect... that is why it was so hard to find all those bolts. They are hiding...lol
Thanks... one more thing that I can get out of the way.
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

So, I reset the timing and then reset the distributor. The internal star piece moved off center from the rotor so I re-centered it and put the cap back on and there is not spark what so ever. I believe that the new distributor and coil will do the trick.
I am going to reset the timing again Friday afternoon and install the new distributor and coil then all should be well. I consider myself an expert on X1/9 timing at this point and even have dreams about setting the timing on fellow XWeb’er X1/9s.

Really wished someone from our forum lived here that could help me and mentor me. I have beer.

Wish me luck and send your bid for a very nice all OEM 1986 X1/9 to tiredoftryingtorepairanX1/9@tavalin.com...
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

As promised a bunch of days ago... the new and old tensioner model numbers.
Sorry it took so long but I had to pull the new tensioner off.
Old is top or the more corroded one. I can see a difference just from the back of them.

I added these two to show the original tensioner with the new tensioner pulley and then the new tensioner with another new pulley.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

Alright,
Gary aside... I have reset the timing (4th time) and replaced the distributor and coil. Attempted to start it and it will not start.
Now, when I first got the X1/9 it was 180 degrees out of time. FiatFriend came over and helped me set the timing out from 180 out to correct (Omaha). The marks on the flywheel and crank were correct from what I can remember.
I don’t know what to do now. I am at a loss.
Please help.
Mike

 

[kmead]

As always you start at the basic beginning. You verified the engine timing so that is step one.

Step two is verifying the set up and install of the new distributor.

• When mapping the wires to the cap are you sure you have them in the correct places?
• The new cap may be different from the old one in regards to the placement of each cylinder.
• Is the rotor actually rotating?
• Are you getting any spark at all?

 

[Tavalin]

As always you start at the basic beginning. You verified the engine timing so that is step one.

Step two is verifying the set up and install of the new distributor.

• When mapping the wires to the cap are you sure you have them in the correct places?
• The new cap may be different from the old one in regards to the placement of each cylinder.
• Is the rotor actually rotating?
• Are you getting any spark at all?

Kmead,
Thank you...
Below are my answers. Sometimes there is a small sputter but not often.

When mapping the wires to the cap are you sure you have them in the correct places?
I have double checked the wire and rotor placement. I need to check the new distributor wires. The connector to the distributor was different so I had to cut and use different connectors. I will go to NAPA or somewhere and get something better.
The original wires are brown and green with a very small connector and the new distributor had a very large connector and red and green wires. I assumed the the two greens would go together and the red and brown would go together. The distributor advertisement said it would have installation instructions but they were not in the box. Wondering if the wires to the coil and spark box are wrong.

The new cap may be different from the old one in regards to the placement of each cylinder?
Yes, the cap has numbers that match the placement of the wires, so pretty much grunt proof. I ensured the rotor was in the correct spot prior to placing the cap back on. The distributor came with two caps. I assumed the rotor would work with both. I like the orange Bosch cap with the orange rotor. Would I be able to change the cap out with something that seems better made?

Is the rotor actually rotating?
This is something I need to check with the new distributor. The old one was rotating.

Are you getting any spark at all?
Something that I will need to check. How do I check that without getting shocked myself?

I really need help and thanks to everyone trying. I am at a loss here. I am really above my head with this one and I am sure it is something very simple.

Mike

 

[Tavalin]

Okay, big update...
My neighbor came over and we started troubleshooting together. The Vick distributor is very different and bypasses the ignition control module. I didn’t read that right so I only bypassed the resistor and kept the ignition control module still on. So Ed regionalized that and we got the correct wires on the coil. Then something strange happened. The little ceramic nipple inside the distributor cap fell out. That took us a few seconds to realize what had happened. Then we looked at my Bosch distributor cap and the ceramic nipple was broken and some of it was stuck behind a contact. OMG!!! That was what was the problem this whole time!!! I didn’t need a new distributor. I needed a new cap. Wow, I am not smart on all of this.
Well, we finally got the new cap fixed and the timing corrected with the wire bypassing the ignition control module. The X1/9 finally started and we set the timing to plus ten on the cam then checked the flywheel and you know what? The flywheel is 180 degrees out.
Oh well... this is now easy for me to do. I will reset the timing and turn the flywheel one turn and that should do it.
Now, the tach doesn’t work. I don’t know but after I get the timing correct I will call Vick Monday to find out why the new distributor didn’t come with a set of instructions (like it says in the online) and why the tach doesn’t work.
Almost there and then on to the car show.
I wonder if the orange Bosch cap and rotor will fit the new distributor. I like the build quality of those better than the new white that I just purchased. I have a new rotor just need a new Bosch cap or the little ceramic nipple.
More to follow,
Mike

 

[ng_randolph]

The X1/9 finally started and we set the timing to plus ten on the cam then checked the flywheel and you know what? The flywheel is 180 degrees out.
Oh well... this is now easy for me to do. I will reset the timing and turn the flywheel one turn and that should do it.

If you turn the flywheel one turn, it will still be off 180°. But aside from that: If your valve timing is off by 180°, the engine will not run. So your valve timing is not off by 180°. If anything is indeed 180° off, it would be that the flywheel is mounted to the crank shaft 180° off. Quite common and quite inconsequential. I would not do anything about it.

Now, the tach doesn’t work. I don’t know but after I get the timing correct I will call Vick Monday to find out why the new distributor didn’t come with a set of instructions (like it says in the online) and why the tach doesn’t work.

Where did you connect the tach on the new ignition system?

Edit: The tachometer gets its signal from the tach output from the Bosch ignition control module. Looking at the photos of the Vick distributor, it does not appear to have an output for the tachometer, so I am guessing you have left the tach disconnected.

 

[Tavalin]

If you turn the flywheel one turn, it will still be off 180°. But aside from that: If your valve timing is off by 180°, the engine will not run. So your valve timing is not off by 180°. If anything is indeed 180° off, it would be that the flywheel is mounted to the crank shaft 180° off. Quite common and quite inconsequential. I would not do anything about it.

Where did you connect the tach on the new ignition system?

Edit: The tachometer gets its signal from the tach output from the Bosch ignition control module. Looking at the photos of the Vick distributor, it does not appear to have an output for the tachometer, so I am guessing you have left the tach disconnected.

What wire is the tach wire??? If I am supposed to bypass the ignition control module then we’re do all the wires go?
Mike