Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
Parts diagram:
Timing Keeps Slipping
- Thread starter Tavalin
- Start date
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
So you're saying that instead of the double ended stud, your setup has a typical capscrew/bolt.
10519501 is the washer (I checked the numerical parts listing that comes after the diagrams in the parts book). 4152332 is the double ended stud.
https://www.midwest-bayless.com/Fia...n-bracket-stud-fiat-dohc-sohc-lancia-new.aspx
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
This thread has some great pix and measurements too!!!
https://www.xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/belt-tensioner-mount-1300-1500.13186/
https://www.xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/belt-tensioner-mount-1300-1500.13186/
Tavalin
Florida Mike (again)
Dan,
I am going to have to look closer at the setup. It is not like the pic and I know I am missing some stuff.
The tensioner should not get tight when you tighten the nut. That is what happened and the tensioner pulley stopped moving and the belt burnt on the pulley. Hence, I now need a new pulley and belt.
Going to figure this out tomorrow. Tired now.
Thanks,
Mike
I am going to have to look closer at the setup. It is not like the pic and I know I am missing some stuff.
The tensioner should not get tight when you tighten the nut. That is what happened and the tensioner pulley stopped moving and the belt burnt on the pulley. Hence, I now need a new pulley and belt.
Going to figure this out tomorrow. Tired now.
Thanks,
Mike
ng_randolph
Bjorn H
Any chance you have a tensioner bracket from a 1300? Have a look at this post.
Tavalin
Florida Mike (again)
Anything is possible. The tensioner pulley I pulled off was black. I didn’t compare the two. Lessened learned.
Maybe I need to replace the whole thing from the hardware to the tensioner to the pulley and a new belt.
Some of the belt burnt to the tensioner pulley.
Should just just purchase what I would know as the correct parts instead of taking chances of using the old parts that might now be right.
Didn’t think of that being a difference.
Thanks,
Mike
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Mike, I'm not sure which thread is best for this, but here are the pics I promised.
Block with tensioner's center mounting stud installed
Close up, ignore the build up of anti-seize at the base
On my 1500 engines the stud passes through a open hole in the cover place and threads into the block. The threaded hole (block) is blind, so no coolant leaks out even with the stud removed. I've read that other blocks are not like this and can leak coolant it the stud isn't sealed
Here is the stud removed from the block
All of the pieces laid out. the loose items (left side) are in the order they assemble on the engine
Close up of the eccentric washer (stepped side goes into the bearing inner race)
I'll begin stacking the parts up onto the bearing in the order they go, starting with the stepped washer
Then the large thick flat washer on top of the stepped washer
On this engine there was another regular washer on top of these others. I have a feeling this isn't needed and normally isn't there (can't recall how the other engines were). Hopefully someone can confirm this, but regardless - anything on the outer side of the bearing (i.e. all of the loose parts) will NOT effect where the bearing sits relative to the tensioner base. So this washer CANNOT be a factor in your situation. Here is how it was on this engine
NOTE, in the last picture the bearing is NOT pressed onto the tensioner base. It is just sitting as far down as it will go without pressing it all the way on. Normally to install the bearing it has to be pressed on, and will stop when the inside edge of the inner race meets this ridge...
That will stop the bearing from going on too far, so it cannot interfere with the other components (i.e. rub like you describe). I suspect you were sent the wrong bearing it it can be installed far enough down to rub anything. All of your other components should be correct - they were on it before and it worked then. Only the bearing was changed, so I believe that is the bad part.
Block with tensioner's center mounting stud installed
Close up, ignore the build up of anti-seize at the base
On my 1500 engines the stud passes through a open hole in the cover place and threads into the block. The threaded hole (block) is blind, so no coolant leaks out even with the stud removed. I've read that other blocks are not like this and can leak coolant it the stud isn't sealed
Here is the stud removed from the block
All of the pieces laid out. the loose items (left side) are in the order they assemble on the engine
Close up of the eccentric washer (stepped side goes into the bearing inner race)
I'll begin stacking the parts up onto the bearing in the order they go, starting with the stepped washer
Then the large thick flat washer on top of the stepped washer
On this engine there was another regular washer on top of these others. I have a feeling this isn't needed and normally isn't there (can't recall how the other engines were). Hopefully someone can confirm this, but regardless - anything on the outer side of the bearing (i.e. all of the loose parts) will NOT effect where the bearing sits relative to the tensioner base. So this washer CANNOT be a factor in your situation. Here is how it was on this engine
NOTE, in the last picture the bearing is NOT pressed onto the tensioner base. It is just sitting as far down as it will go without pressing it all the way on. Normally to install the bearing it has to be pressed on, and will stop when the inside edge of the inner race meets this ridge...
That will stop the bearing from going on too far, so it cannot interfere with the other components (i.e. rub like you describe). I suspect you were sent the wrong bearing it it can be installed far enough down to rub anything. All of your other components should be correct - they were on it before and it worked then. Only the bearing was changed, so I believe that is the bad part.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
In another thread referenced by someone else there is another picture that may help. It is of the bearing fully installed on the tensioner base, with a feeler gauge showing there is a small gap between the back of the bearing and the base. If your bearing was rubbing then there must not be any gap there. The only reason I can think of is the bearing is incorrect.
This is a 1300 engine tensioner and bearing, which look slightly different than 1500 items. But the relationship is the same, there must be a small gap behind the bearing.
This is a 1300 engine tensioner and bearing, which look slightly different than 1500 items. But the relationship is the same, there must be a small gap behind the bearing.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Mike, in your other thread there was a better picture offered that shows the correct hardware (no additional flat washer or lock washer). So I went back out to dig up a better example to show here.
This one has the bearing pressed onto the 'carrier' (tensioner base), and the correct hardware.
Better pic of the hardware. Same as earlier, but without the extra flat washer and lock washer.
Comparing this one to the one I pictured earlier, you can see the bearings do not all look the same. That is just differences between manufacturers so don't let it fool you, dimensionally they are the same in all critical areas (ID, OD, width). And remember the one on the left isn't pressed all the way onto the carrier here. After this I'll only show the one that is fully seated.
You can see the clearance behind the bearing and the carrier (with the bearing fully seated on the carrier).
Also note there is a gap on the other side, allowing room for the stepped washer.
Here is another view. No way for the bearing to rub on anything.
Going back to the block, here is the carrier sitting on the stud.
And with the pressed on bearing on the carrier.
Stepped washer. Then large flat washer and nut.
That's all there is to it. Your parts should look the same, except possibly the bearing. The key thing to look for on the bearing is how far it sits on the carrier when fully seated (pressed) on.
This one has the bearing pressed onto the 'carrier' (tensioner base), and the correct hardware.
Better pic of the hardware. Same as earlier, but without the extra flat washer and lock washer.
Comparing this one to the one I pictured earlier, you can see the bearings do not all look the same. That is just differences between manufacturers so don't let it fool you, dimensionally they are the same in all critical areas (ID, OD, width). And remember the one on the left isn't pressed all the way onto the carrier here. After this I'll only show the one that is fully seated.
You can see the clearance behind the bearing and the carrier (with the bearing fully seated on the carrier).
Also note there is a gap on the other side, allowing room for the stepped washer.
Here is another view. No way for the bearing to rub on anything.
Going back to the block, here is the carrier sitting on the stud.
And with the pressed on bearing on the carrier.
Stepped washer. Then large flat washer and nut.
That's all there is to it. Your parts should look the same, except possibly the bearing. The key thing to look for on the bearing is how far it sits on the carrier when fully seated (pressed) on.
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
Well done Dr. Jeff!
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Just to add a couple more thoughts regarding the bearing rubbing on the carrier.
The bearing's inner and outer races are different widths. The outer race is wider than the inner race. See what I mean here:
There is a 5mm difference (outer is 5mm wider than inner). IF the bearing you got has more of a difference (i.e. the outer race is much more than 5mm wider than the inner race), then that might allow the bearing to rub. When the inner race is fully seated, the outer race could extend too far back.
This dimension is for a 1500 bearing. As I understand it, the 1300 bearing is narrower than the 1500 one. So even if you got the wrong one (1300 vs 1500), it should not rub. But you can verify if the bearing is a 1500 by the outside diameter: 1300 = 60mm, 1500 = 56mm.
Also, the bearings are symmetrical; both sides are identical (including the same 5mm width difference), there is no "inner and outer" or "front and back" sides. So it does not matter which way you install it.
Another possibility is if the large thick washer (the one that goes over the 'stepped' washer, under the nut) is the wrong one and is big enough (OD) to interfere (rub) with the bearing's outer race. For example, if it is big enough to extend to here (the blue arrow reaches to where the red arrow is):
The large washer should only contact the stepped washer (and therefore the bearing inner race) and the nut - nothing else.
The bearing's inner and outer races are different widths. The outer race is wider than the inner race. See what I mean here:
There is a 5mm difference (outer is 5mm wider than inner). IF the bearing you got has more of a difference (i.e. the outer race is much more than 5mm wider than the inner race), then that might allow the bearing to rub. When the inner race is fully seated, the outer race could extend too far back.
This dimension is for a 1500 bearing. As I understand it, the 1300 bearing is narrower than the 1500 one. So even if you got the wrong one (1300 vs 1500), it should not rub. But you can verify if the bearing is a 1500 by the outside diameter: 1300 = 60mm, 1500 = 56mm.
Also, the bearings are symmetrical; both sides are identical (including the same 5mm width difference), there is no "inner and outer" or "front and back" sides. So it does not matter which way you install it.
Another possibility is if the large thick washer (the one that goes over the 'stepped' washer, under the nut) is the wrong one and is big enough (OD) to interfere (rub) with the bearing's outer race. For example, if it is big enough to extend to here (the blue arrow reaches to where the red arrow is):
The large washer should only contact the stepped washer (and therefore the bearing inner race) and the nut - nothing else.
Last edited:
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Dan, the factory parts illustration posted earlier is bugging me a little. There are some discrepancies between it and what I'm finding on all of my 1500's. Is the illustration for a 1300? Are they different? Did Fiat change things somewhere along the way?
Here are the things that look different to me.
I don't have washers 11198371 nor 10519501 (blue circles). I also don't have a stud with a nut (green circle).
And relating back to older threads about replacing the tensioner bearing, it is often said that coolant will leak if the center stud is disturbed. That cannot happen with any of mine ('79, '80, and two '85s) because the threaded hole in the block is blind....which might explain the difference with the nut on the stud (green) and second washer (blue on the right)?
To be clear, I'm not saying anyone is wrong, merely wondering about the differences.
Tavalin
Florida Mike (again)
Dr. Jeff,
That is perfect!!! I am ordering parts and hopefully will correct what is off with what I have.
Sometimes it is better to start from scratch instead of trying to figure out what went wrong.
I possibly have a 1300cc tensioner bracket and tried to put a 1500cc tensioner pulley on it.
Anyway, I need to get the X1/9 moving. Gary is getting very frustrated that his dad can’t get it going.
Thanks,
Mike
MikeHynes
True Classic
Fiat changed things between the 1300 and 1500. Or so it appears to me. The 1300s I've had experience with had the special bolt as above - 4152332,
the 1500s just had a stud (cost savings?).
When Fiat changed to the stud they also eliminated the washer - 4325800 - as in the above illustration, because it would serve no purpose. If you do not install the 4325800 washer with the 4152332 special bolt the bolt will bottom out in the blind hole it's screwed into.
If you experience loss of coolant when you remove either the stud or 4152332 bolt it's likely due to the cover plate leaking - not that the stud/bolt hole is open to the water jacket. (They aren't on any of my engines at least.) One thing to note is that the special bolt with the washer actually holds that cover plate down. The stud does not.
A bit off the topic, but relevant, is how to take up slack in the timing belt tension which is introduced when milling the head and or block. Since the 1300 timing belt tensioner bearing is a bit larger in diameter, it can be used to take up some slack on the 1500 engine. But, you've got to come up with some other way to do it on the 1300 that's been modified. I suppose there are many ways to do this, but I've used these two:
First, simply machine up a sleeve to slip over the outside of the tensioner bearing. That increases it's diameter thus taking up the slack. It works great.
Next, you can also modify the pivoting bracket that holds the timing belt tensioner so that it will pivot out just a bit more, taking up the slack. This is a bit trickier, but it's possible. Here's are a couple pics of mods to the bracket and the special shouldered washer that allow the tensioner bearing to pivot out just a bit more. First the unmodified bracket (with 4325800 washer),
Then the modified bracket and stepped 4149974 washer.
The bracket in the pics above has also been modified to use the special bolt by milling out enough material underneath to accommodate the hex head on the special bolt. The washer (4325800) isn't used as it would limit the amount of pivot.
So...the special bolt must be shortened by about 4mm so it doesn't bottom out in the bolt hole. Of course you could use the stud from a 1500, but then you would loose the clamping force that the special stud exerts on the cover plate to help keep it from leaking. (Note that there's not much on that corner holding the plate on.)
A third method that I've seen, but not used, is to elongate the pivot hole on the bracket. I don't recommend this, but It seems like it might work.
the 1500s just had a stud (cost savings?).
When Fiat changed to the stud they also eliminated the washer - 4325800 - as in the above illustration, because it would serve no purpose. If you do not install the 4325800 washer with the 4152332 special bolt the bolt will bottom out in the blind hole it's screwed into.
If you experience loss of coolant when you remove either the stud or 4152332 bolt it's likely due to the cover plate leaking - not that the stud/bolt hole is open to the water jacket. (They aren't on any of my engines at least.) One thing to note is that the special bolt with the washer actually holds that cover plate down. The stud does not.
A bit off the topic, but relevant, is how to take up slack in the timing belt tension which is introduced when milling the head and or block. Since the 1300 timing belt tensioner bearing is a bit larger in diameter, it can be used to take up some slack on the 1500 engine. But, you've got to come up with some other way to do it on the 1300 that's been modified. I suppose there are many ways to do this, but I've used these two:
First, simply machine up a sleeve to slip over the outside of the tensioner bearing. That increases it's diameter thus taking up the slack. It works great.
Next, you can also modify the pivoting bracket that holds the timing belt tensioner so that it will pivot out just a bit more, taking up the slack. This is a bit trickier, but it's possible. Here's are a couple pics of mods to the bracket and the special shouldered washer that allow the tensioner bearing to pivot out just a bit more. First the unmodified bracket (with 4325800 washer),
Then the modified bracket and stepped 4149974 washer.
The bracket in the pics above has also been modified to use the special bolt by milling out enough material underneath to accommodate the hex head on the special bolt. The washer (4325800) isn't used as it would limit the amount of pivot.
So...the special bolt must be shortened by about 4mm so it doesn't bottom out in the bolt hole. Of course you could use the stud from a 1500, but then you would loose the clamping force that the special stud exerts on the cover plate to help keep it from leaking. (Note that there's not much on that corner holding the plate on.)
A third method that I've seen, but not used, is to elongate the pivot hole on the bracket. I don't recommend this, but It seems like it might work.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
That makes sense. And the bolt is what I imagined, with the nut as part of it rather than separate. Agreed it is likely a benefit to have that extra clamping from the nut/bolt on the cover plate - to help seal that corner. Which is likely the source of any coolant leaks as suggested, not the hole as has been discussed in the past.
However I wonder if those bolts are still available? It appears the later plain "stud" type uses the same part number so finding one of the old style may be difficult.
Regarding a 1300 with milled head/cam box. I have not researched it much, but there is another bearing that is even larger OD than the stock 1300 bearing. It has the same 25mm ID, double row deep groove ball bearing, sealed both sides, 25mm width (same as a 1500 bearing), with a 62mm OD (opposed to 60mm of the 1300). Not sure if that is enough extra diameter to matter. The generic number is 5305-2RS. Might be worth looking into?
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Regarding the stud for the tensioner. The later style stud does not have enough threads (on the block end) to add a typical jam nut to it. However it might be possible to find a replacement (standard style) stud that will allow for that. This would add the extra clamping force to the cover plate, barring locating one of the old style studs.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
It occured to me (finally) that this extra clamping benefit of the old style bolt/stud (with the nut) only exists when the tensioner assembly is loosened. Otherwise the whole thing clamps down the water jacket plate when the tensioner is tightened. I know, it was obvious and I believe it was even stated earlier, but I just got it. Duh.
Considering how infrequent the tensioner is loosened, I don't see this as any real benefit.
Considering how infrequent the tensioner is loosened, I don't see this as any real benefit.
Tavalin
Florida Mike (again)
Okay... I got the new tensioner bracket and pulley installed. BTW, the old bracket has a different part number than the new bracket. I can see a difference between the two. I will take pics tomorrow.
Now after triple checking my settings I tried to fire the X1/9 up and it wouldn’t fire. The rotor is perfect and the wires are correct. I knew I did something wrong the other day. I burned up the distributor because I was tired and stupid. Now I need a new distributor. The rotor and cap are fine. I am embarrassed to even mention what I did. Let’s just say it was a stupid mistake.
Would anyone have one they would be willing to sell and ship immediately? I really need it. I am going to take my wife’s Stelvio to the Park Square Social car show tomorrow.
I am very disappointed in myself.
Mike
Now after triple checking my settings I tried to fire the X1/9 up and it wouldn’t fire. The rotor is perfect and the wires are correct. I knew I did something wrong the other day. I burned up the distributor because I was tired and stupid. Now I need a new distributor. The rotor and cap are fine. I am embarrassed to even mention what I did. Let’s just say it was a stupid mistake.
Would anyone have one they would be willing to sell and ship immediately? I really need it. I am going to take my wife’s Stelvio to the Park Square Social car show tomorrow.
I am very disappointed in myself.
Mike
