(almost) No Cut K20 Swap

Right on Dennsirh

Before the engine swap my car was handeling great. After the engine swap the power would literally wad the car up and spit it out somewhere in the corner. Also I couldn't get it balanced between high speed corners and low speed corners. It would push on low speed corners and oversteer on high speed corners. I could make it work under either condition but it would kill the other condition. Also the extra power would light up the inside rear tire even in third gear curves, not even hard corners. In those days we were using Hoosire bias tires, 205-60 X 13, and we were melting the tread so bad that chuncks of the tread were coming off the tire as large as quarters. I tried stiffer front springs to get the rear hooked up but that killed the moderate to tighter corners with push. I finally discovered that the PBS modification that I used for the front trailing link that changed the front rubber bushing to a Heim joint also shortened the trailing link adding more front caster. The caster turned out to be 9.5 degrees. This added a lot of additional front camber on tight corners causing it to push, The effect was less pronounced on high speed corners because of the reduced steering input. After correcting the problem and bringing the front caster to 6 degrees I could balance the high and low speed corners. This allowed me to increase to front spring rate and alter the rear toe which helped put the power to the ground, it was a major improvement. I also dropped the boost down from 20 PSI to 12 PSI but I did that early on before the caster change and still had the same problems. I then found the LSD from Germany for the Scorpion transaxle and that finished it. The car would hook up and literally jump off the corners. I think the main problem is that with the extra power the handeling window becomes smaller and requires more precise adjustments. The fiat 2 liter turbo has a big valve head, PBS B3 cams, 9.2 to 1 compression, modified Spika sequential fuel injection, four throttle body intake and a few other minor improvements. I never dynoed this motor but PBS did dyno several 2 liters turbos and they told me that it should be around 300 HP but it's the torque of the turbo that really makes things happen since the Hourse power sells cars and torque propells cars. I know you'll get it all worked out and then you'll have a great modern setup.

Keep revin
Charlie
 
I believe you should be able to tune your k24 to be more linier in HP and torque.

I am going to stick with the k20 setup (on the red x) with some minor upgrades to get a little more HP but nothing drastic. I really like the power this engine produces for my style of driving.
 
?.. but he never really got around to getting everything set up before he found some hot girls in Eastern europe. That stopped everything.

Charlie

I had to read that twice, at first thinking it was a euphemism or some inside joke or something, before I realized you actually meant 'hot girls in Eastern Europe'.
 
So I have installed the fiberglass hood, trunk and engine cover. Also got a PRC intake manifold and new muffler. Had to get a new muffler, because the original one was too loud and I got flagged by sound at the last autocross. The PRC manifold is from Japan and it produces a bit more horsepower and torque than the stock PRB intake that the K20a2 comes with. They look very similar, but up close you can tell that the PRC manifold has larger runners for more air flow. The PRC manifold fit perfect as it is the same size as the PRB.




Next I will be taking my car to the Honda tuner to be Dyno tuned. I should be able to get a bit more out of the engine with a proper tune, so far I have been running it on a stock map for the K24a2. I will then also know what kind of horsepower and torque I am getting out of this engine. Not that it really matters, the car is ridiculously fast no matter what the horsepower rating is.
 
Intake Manifolds

The RBC and RCC manifolds are quite a bit larger that the PRB or PRC manifolds. I was able to borrow an RSP manifold, which comes from the euro type R Honda's, from a friend. The RSP is very similar to the RBC but looks a little smaller. I tried to install it but there was no way it would fit in my X. I tried several different angles and just couldn't get it to slide in. I also tried to see if I could get the stock TSX intake manifold, RBB, to fit and it was even worse than the RSP. If you have cut out your firewall, which I have not, you might be able to fit an RBC on your engine. I would be worried though that the throttle body port would be too far into the spare tire compartment to efficiently pipe to the throttle body. If you are able to get it to work I would be interesting in seeing pictures of the installation. I think I am happy with the PRC for now, according to an article the difference in power between a PRC and an RBC is 5 hp and .6 TQ and most of the power is at very high RPM. Not really a huge difference in my opinion. Here is the article, its a good read to learn about Honda intakes.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/sstp-1002-k-series-intake-manifold-shootout/
 
Is the manifold a complex unit? Does it have a second set of runners and associated flaps etc?

Speaking as an ignorant viewer, it would seem worth looking at a manifold whose chamber instead of coming along the side of the engine was instead on top with the intake runners coming over the top. The current intake is the way it is due to the packaging of a FWD vehicle with a very low hood.

This obviously would require developing a new intake and likely some loss of power but could greatly improve the overall packaging in an X.

Does this seem at all reasonable?

Sorry if this is a stupid post/question.

Karl
 
Is the manifold a complex unit? Does it have a second set of runners and associated flaps etc?

Speaking as an ignorant viewer, it would seem worth looking at a manifold whose chamber instead of coming along the side of the engine was instead on top with the intake runners coming over the top. The current intake is the way it is due to the packaging of a FWD vehicle with a very low hood.

This obviously would require developing a new intake and likely some loss of power but could greatly improve the overall packaging in an X.

Does this seem at all reasonable?

Sorry if this is a stupid post/question.

Karl

K series manifolds are actually pretty simple designs. One piece plenum with runners, no flaps. The length and width of the runners determines whether they are tuned for hp or torque. The plenum size also plays a part in the equation. I thought about making a custom intake for the K20 in an X that would be of similar design to the original Fiat intake with the runners curving upwards and the Plenum sitting on top of the engine. I even found a custom intake maker who was willing to build it for me. The problem is the cost v. function equation. The cost of a custom intake is around $2,500. If the design is not right, you could lose a lot of hp and you would have to redesign it and get another made. If I were making them myself this might be worth the trial and error, but paying someone to make them for me would get out of hand.

I think that this could be a solution.


I found this pic of a lotus Exige with a K20 swap where they put individual throttle bodies instead of a plenum intake manifold and they pointed the ITBs upwards. This would be a solution for the X 1/9 as you probably wouldn't need to cut or bend the firewall at all. Maybe someday I'll have the time and money to experiment with ITBs.
 
I had some time today to work on the K20X. I got the speedometer calibrated and checked it with a GPS app on my Iphone. Interestingly the app also had a 0-60 timer on it and of course I couldn't help but try it a few times.


I am riding on 185/60/13 tires that are probably 15 years old, so not getting a lot of traction. I also tried the app in my Porsche and got 5.7 secs, most sources say my Porsche will do a 5.3-5.5 (0-60). Considering the age of my Porsche and the tires I think 5.7 seconds is fairly accurate. I will have to try the app in the K20X with my slicks on the car. I expect low 3s if I can get good traction.
 
New Autocross video

Had some good runs at the autocross this last weekend. This was my third run of the day getting a 37.9. My best time of the day was 36.8 good for 18th place out of 179 entrants. I was less than a second behind the LS Powered Miata as well. Things are working well on the K20X.

https://youtu.be/9PgUFEGB-Hw
 
Dennis,

Congrats! Saw the video and the car looks pretty well balanced - I didn't see much front end push at all!

Ed
 
Thanks to Matt Brannon and his suggestions I was able to just about eliminate all of the front wheel push. The front end will still slip if I accelerate hard during a corner, but then the back end will slide out when I hit the torque curve and the back wheels slip. Its an interesting balance and the lesson to be learned is: don't floor a K20X during a corner. My next step is to see if I can get the car a bit lower to the ground. All of the other "racecar" guys have commented that my car is way too high. The LS Miata is approximately 2 inches off the ground. I am about 5 inches off the ground. Not sure how low I can go before the suspension geometry will suffer to the point that it is not worth it, but I will find out.

Fiatmonkey: My rev limiter is set to stock spec which I believe is 7100 RPM.

Some Pics:


My car looks like a 4x4 compared to my competition.




 
What size wheels & tires are on this exxe?

Let's start here..


Bernice


Thanks to Matt Brannon and his suggestions I was able to just about eliminate all of the front wheel push. The front end will still slip if I accelerate hard during a corner, but then the back end will slide out when I hit the torque curve and the back wheels slip. Its an interesting balance and the lesson to be learned is: don't floor a K20X during a corner. My next step is to see if I can get the car a bit lower to the ground. All of the other "racecar" guys have commented that my car is way too high. The LS Miata is approximately 2 inches off the ground. I am about 5 inches off the ground. Not sure how low I can go before the suspension geometry will suffer to the point that it is not worth it, but I will find out.

Fiatmonkey: My rev limiter is set to stock spec which I believe is 7100 RPM.

Some Pics:


My car looks like a 4x4 compared to my competition.




 
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