(almost) No Cut K20 Swap

Part I
I have been working on my K20 Swap for about a year and a half and am near completion. I have been driving the car for about three weeks and am just working out a few kinks here and there. When I saw the first Midwest Bayless K20 swap I was amazed and intrigued in that it was the perfect engine swap in my opinion. I have seen other engine swaps and performance options for the X 1/9, but was never satisfied with the dollar/hp result. Back in the 90s I almost did a Dodge Daytona turbo engine swap, as I had a beat up Dodge Daytona Turbo for a while. Always thought the X 1/9 was the perfect car except for the lack of horsepower. I almost sent my X 1/9 to Matt right after he put the information up about the first K20 swap. My main reservation, was with how much of the frame and firewall had to be cut from the X 1/9. I just couldn't bring myself to cut a perfectly good X 1/9 that much. I started doing research on the K series engines and then a by random chance I ended up with both the money and perfect X 1/9 for a swap. My 1985 X 1/9 got wrecked and I got a decent amount of money from the insurance. Posts about it is here http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/24163/

I decided to experiment with a K20 build and felt that I wouldn't feel too bad if I had to cut up my 1985 since it was almost on its way to the junkyard anyways. I also wanted to see if I could modify the K20 engine to fit in an X 1/9 rather than modify the X 1/9 to fit the engine.

So here is what I did:
First got a 2002 RSX type S donor car. The car ran great. Had lots of power and shifted through the gears smoothly. The car had 120,000 miles on it, but I have been told that the K20 engine is good for a lot more than that. I had my mechanic friend do a leak-down test and check for any fault codes on the computer and other than a valve cover gasket oil leak and a broken sensor, the engine and transmission where in great shape.



Took the engine transmission and wiring harness out. All as one unit. I did not detach the wiring harness or transmission during the entire build.


Bought the kit from Matt, installed the subframe, and had it welded.





I removed the subframe from the car and then removed the water pump, alternator, intake and exhaust manifolds from the K20 and bolted the subframe to the engine.



I then began test fitting the engine on the subframe into the X to see where it was absolutely necessary to cut. To my surprise the only place where my engine was hitting and absolutely needed to be cut was the drivers side wheel well, where the transmission housing was hitting. I didn't take a picture of the area, but if i remember to, I will when I remove the engine to paint the engine compartment. Basically the area where the indentation is for the X 1/9 transmission needs to be opened up to allow for the larger transmission. Instead of cutting the whole frame rail like the otehr K20 builds i saw online, I cut a very small section of the rectangular frame rail out and then bent the metal together making the frame rail more triangular than rectangular. I removed about 1.5 inches width x 8 inches length. I removed a little metal at a time and then test fitted over and over again until I had made enough room for the transmission. The clearance is extremely close, but so far after driving the car for about 3 weeks I haven't had any rubbing or knocking of the transmission against the frame. The engine fit pretty nicely within the engine bay of the X 1/9 with absolutely no cuts to the front frame or firewall. Only problem was, I wasn't going to get the water pump alternator or intake manifold back on without doing some modification to the engine bay. First thing I found is that you can delete the water pump on a K20 and put an electric water pump in its place. This not only saves space and weight, it reduces drag on the engine, so more power as well and it relocates and changes the alternator from the large heavy RSX alternator to a smaller alternator from the base civic. The civic alternator is smaller and closer to the engine block than the RSX alternator and it plugs right into the RSX wiring harness, no modification necessary. (its amazing what these Honda guys have all ready figured out for this engine for drag racing)




I had successfully reduced the amount of room I would need for the water pump, alternator and pulleys on the engine. I test fitted the engine and installed the water pump block off plate with the alternator on it and put the belt on the pulleys. The belt hit the corner of the engine bay, so I needed to make an indentation in the frame rail to allow for some clearance. I bent the metal rather than cutting it and was able to make about an inch and a half of clearance just bending it. This was enough to allow for the belt.

The picture is a bit dark, but you can kind of see where the alternator bracket is and the metal on the X 1/9 is bent in the top right hand corner.

Part II

So a list of things I did cut.
The engine mount on the passenger side of the car was cut off.
The bottom bracket for the radiator overflow tank was cut off (I am not sure this was completely necessary, but it did make it easier to get the transmission in)
Various small bolts that were sticking through the firewall.

Things I did not cut that usually are cut in a K20 build:
the firewall
Frame rail below the firewall
left and right side frame rails (except as noted for the transmission)
Rear trunk and exhaust area.
Rear engine mount (the top one for the dog bone mount)

The main issue with the K20 motor needing more room than an X 1/9 can provide is for the K20 intake manifold. The K20 intake manifold is huge compared to the Fiat one. The firewall on the X 1/9 is convex when looking at it from the rear of the car. This convex part of the firewall interferes with the K20 intake manifold. This is, in my opinion the main reason to cut the box out of the firewall. I looked into several different manifolds that were either smaller or curved upward. Several Individual throttle body intakes almost fit. There is also an individual throttle body intake that they use on Lotus Exige swaps that curves upward. Here are some of the measurements I took prior to any bending.





As you can see, I only had between 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 inches between the head and the firewall. Since I couldn't find an intake that would fit in such a small space, I designed one.



I sent this crude design to a fabricator that makes custom intakes for turbo applications. He was more than willing to make this for me, but he said that with the runners being as short as they were, that I would have very little low end torque and my power would probably not really start until 9,000 RPM. This is not the performance I was looking for. At the end of the day, i wasn't going to spend 2 grand on an intake that I wasn't sure would fit or work right, so I made my bends in my firewall to accommodate the stock intake. I bent the rear firewall and ended up with about 9 1/2 inches of clearance, which is just barely enough for the stock manifold.



About 1/2 inch of clearance to be exact. My firewall is now a bit concave where it used to be convex. However, I think that I could still fit a small emergency spare in my spare tire compartment.

Part III
Engine with the intake now fits in the engine bay. Time for some plumbing. With the electric water pump, i could have forgone a thermostat, but I decided it would be a good idea to have one. I used the Lancia thermostat that Matt has used on previous K20 conversions, but I did find that there are many other thermostats that will work just as good. I do not recommend the inline thermostat that K-tuned sells as it is a single action thermostat that completely inhibits water flow. This is bad for an engine as it can create hot spots. a dual action thermostat is the way to go. the plumbing was a bit complicated and I am still tweaking the system to allow maximum water flow. AS you can see in th epicture witht the electric water pump, there is a short rubber hose connecting the water pump to the thermostat. The thermostat is then connected to the hose exiting the head on the open when cold side of the thermostat. The open when hot side of the thermostat is connected to this T-shaped junction.



The black and green hose goes to the expansion tank return line. The other hose connects to the radiator out pipe.

The -AN line in the pic above (black with red/blue fitting) is the return line to the radiator. I found an adapter to go from -16 AN line to smooth rubber hose. I used the K-tuned upper coolant outlet instead of the stock RSX outlet, because it allows you to change the angle of the exit hose and can use -AN lines. This set up works well as the -AN line is much more rigid than regular rubber hose, so I don't have to worry too much about the line collapsing from bending.
Fuel lines where next.
Fuel pump bracket was modified for a lower profile.

Stock fuel pump, stock fuel filter. Used regular rubber hose to go from the fuel filter to the fuel rail.

The other side of the fuel rail has the fuel pressure regulator and the return line connects to the stock Fiat return line (fuel injected Fiats).
This part was pretty easy.

Next came the shift cable linkage. Inside the car, I had to cut the center tunnel to fit the stick shift assemble, but I only cut what was absolutely necessary, so I have overlap between the metal of the stick shift assembly and the center tunnel (about to the second screw from the bottom). I drilled holes in the tunnel and put the bracing bracket inside the tunnel instead of on top of the tunnel. The screws go through the metal of the tunnel and hold the Stick shift assembly secure. No welding was necessary.

On the transmission side I did a bit of frabrication. I cut the Acura RSX cables and drilled and tapped the end links to match the thread on the end of the cables Matt supplied me. I also cut the bracket off the RSX lines and used them to attach the lines to the RSX shift linkage. Top cable is the RSX cable, bottom is the cable supplied with the kit.

Cables modified.

It is also necessary to pull the cables further away from the linkage for them to work properly. I made an aluminum plate to accomplish this.

This is the mock up piece of aluminum. I forgot to take a pic of the final fabricated piece. It looks exactly the same only it is thicker and isn't missing a bolt.

Still more to come.
Hay guy can you send pics!! for what ever reason I cant veiw them! Thx! Or can you send them to this email?? p.warpaint@gmail.com Again thx Patrick
 
This may not be the best thread to add my comments to, so please advise me if you know a better place for it...

Reading through this build (actually I read the version in the link from @lookforjoe, with photos) two thoughts came to mind, although I have no plans to do a Honda swap into a X myself.

I've noted one of the main hindrances seems to be the stock Honda intake manifold clearance. Apparently this is one of the major areas that usually results in cutting up the X's firewall(?). In this current build he looked into having a custom "short" manifold made, so it would fit the car without mods. But the resultant manifold would significantly alter the engine's power band, so it was not done. But here is one of my thoughts. If you intended to do a turbo addition to the Honda engine, then a "shorty" intake manifold would work perfectly. I'm thinking something similar to the example shown below (for a different application). Not only would it allow plenty of clearance without any cutting of the firewall, the turbo adds a ton of torque so the short manifold will work perfectly - even for a street car.
s-l300.jpg


The second thought was regarding the shift linkage and related mechanisms he made for the Honda transmission. Using cables, a fabricated shifter, and adaptor plate, he was able to make the Honda trans work in the X. I'm sure many other Honda/X swap builders have done the same. Frankly it does not appear to be that difficult to do. So why can't this sort of shift mechanism be built to mount the later Fiat transmissions in a X? I'm referring to the stronger trans units from later FWD models with better syncros and gear ratios. As I understand there are a few models of them that will accept the X's engine. Or you could also use the later design engines, as came in those later Fiat models with the trans. I recall this has been discussed but the argument has often been the shifter won't work. So why not make a cable setup like the Honda swaps use?

Again, perhaps not the best place for these thoughts. But wanted to share them anyway.
 
This may not be the best thread to add my comments to, so please advise me if you know a better place for it...

Reading through this build (actually I read the version in the link from @lookforjoe, with photos) two thoughts came to mind, although I have no plans to do a Honda swap into a X myself.

I've noted one of the main hindrances seems to be the stock Honda intake manifold clearance. Apparently this is one of the major areas that usually results in cutting up the X's firewall(?). In this current build he looked into having a custom "short" manifold made, so it would fit the car without mods. But the resultant manifold would significantly alter the engine's power band, so it was not done. But here is one of my thoughts. If you intended to do a turbo addition to the Honda engine, then a "shorty" intake manifold would work perfectly. I'm thinking something similar to the example shown below (for a different application). Not only would it allow plenty of clearance without any cutting of the firewall, the turbo adds a ton of torque so the short manifold will work perfectly - even for a street car.
View attachment 45927

The second thought was regarding the shift linkage and related mechanisms he made for the Honda transmission. Using cables, a fabricated shifter, and adaptor plate, he was able to make the Honda trans work in the X. I'm sure many other Honda/X swap builders have done the same. Frankly it does not appear to be that difficult to do. So why can't this sort of shift mechanism be built to mount the later Fiat transmissions in a X? I'm referring to the stronger trans units from later FWD models with better syncros and gear ratios. As I understand there are a few models of them that will accept the X's engine. Or you could also use the later design engines, as came in those later Fiat models with the trans. I recall this has been discussed but the argument has often been the shifter won't work. So why not make a cable setup like the Honda swaps use?

Again, perhaps not the best place for these thoughts. But wanted to share them anyway.
In regards to adapting a cable shifted transmission, yes it would be relatively easy now that there are a fair number of companies who make aftermarket shift cables etc. The big thing is finding the transmissions (in the US in particular) that do fit and are still in good condition.

There are a ton of Fiat 500 transmissions out there which are going for pennies on the dollar due to lack of market. The real opportunity would be coming up with a way to adapt those transmissions to our engines. Given that a good rebuild of an X transmission is @1800 bucks with a core, there seems like a decent economic oppportunity out there (yes it would require an adapter, a means of supporting the starter and new drive shafts along with the shifter mechanism).

Part of this was discussed recently I will cast around to find that, perhaps moving this part of the discourse there would be a good continuation.
 
There are a ton of Fiat 500 transmissions out there which are going for pennies on the dollar due to lack of market. The real opportunity would be coming up with a way to adapt those transmissions to our engines.
The late 6 speed C510 box would be wonderful but it differs so much from the X1/9 C506 box so it won't fit the engine.
I've seen a lot of builds with BMW boxes on Volvo engines and 2JZ engines. I assume they have an adapter plate to make it work. Maybe that is an option for marrying a late C510 box with a X engine?
 
The late 6 speed C510 box would be wonderful but it differs so much from the X1/9 C506 box so it won't fit the engine.
I've seen a lot of builds with BMW boxes on Volvo engines and 2JZ engines. I assume they have an adapter plate to make it work. Maybe that is an option for marrying a late C510 box with a X engine?
Engine/transmission adapter plates are common for certain applications, but seem non-existent for lots of others. For example you can get ones to mount pretty much any American transmission to any American engine, or almost any engine in the world to a VW or Porsche transaxle (the old air-cooled types). But I seriously doubt there has ever been one made for a antique Fiat engine to fit a newer Fiat transmission. And to have one engineered would likely be extremely expensive. Certainly not worth it for the X's very limited engine potential.
In my earlier post I was wondering what Fiat engine and transmission combination (originally together from the factory) could be installed. As Karl said we received very few Fiats in recent years here, but are there common models in Europe (or elsewhere) that would be plentiful, cheap, modern enough to be powerful and reliable but not so modern to be difficult to use (e.g. the multiair)? Hopefully it would be cheap enough to make the shipping worthwhile. This is kind of like the UT used to be, making for a good X swap. With so many Fiat models out there - and in such huge numbers - there I'm sure there must be something?
 
I wonder if it would be feasible to use a scanner to scan the rear of the Fiat engine, and the bellhousing of the transmission of choice to develop a CAD based adaptor?
 
I wonder if it would be feasible to use a scanner to scan the rear of the Fiat engine, and the bellhousing of the transmission of choice to develop a CAD based adaptor?
There is a company that does electric conversions for older cars. They utilize the existing transmission and make an adaptor plate to mate the electric motor onto it. And that's what they do, scan both sides to create a file. Then they send the file to China to have the custom plate made (MUCH less costly than getting it done here). But by the time you account for the scanning equipment (or pay someone to do it) and the manufacturing process to make the plate, it will be rather expensive. So my question is if the expense is warranted for keeping the original X engine? Having a better gearbox would be nice, but then the engine becomes the weak link (in performance terms). At some point it might be better to do a complete powertrain swap?
 
I know nothing about the scanners used for this type of modeling, but it seems to me that (given the right sized local population) that there would be plenty of opportunities to make money offering scanning services. I would image that others might feel the same?
Sorry about the drift!
 
The late 6 speed C510 box would be wonderful but it differs so much from the X1/9 C506 box so it won't fit the engine.
I've seen a lot of builds with BMW boxes on Volvo engines and 2JZ engines. I assume they have an adapter plate to make it work. Maybe that is an option for marrying a late C510 box with a X engine?
Bjorn, I thought you found out earlier that the C510 gearbox does fit on the x1/9 engine, there is some discussion about what's involved in this thread.
 
Bjorn, I thought you found out earlier that the C510 gearbox does fit on the x1/9 engine, there is some discussion about what's involved in this thread.
Yes, the OLD 5 Speed C510 (Uno Turbo Mk2 and others) fits on the X1/9 engine. However, the LATE C510 (Fiat/Abarth 500 etc) does not fit.
 
I had the same confusion about "C510" transmissions some time back when I was researching LSD options. Very confusing to use the same name for what is effectively two completely different transmissions. I had a vendor tell me their LSD has been successfully used in the C510, only to later find out they were referring to the other (later) version.
 
I had the same confusion about "C510" transmissions some time back when I was researching LSD options. Very confusing to use the same name for what is effectively two completely different transmissions. I had a vendor tell me their LSD has been successfully used in the C510, only to later find out they were referring to the other (later) version.
Moved this discussion over to a new thread:

 
Part I
I have been working on my K20 Swap for about a year and a half and am near completion. I have been driving the car for about three weeks and am just working out a few kinks here and there. When I saw the first Midwest Bayless K20 swap I was amazed and intrigued in that it was the perfect engine swap in my opinion. I have seen other engine swaps and performance options for the X 1/9, but was never satisfied with the dollar/hp result. Back in the 90s I almost did a Dodge Daytona turbo engine swap, as I had a beat up Dodge Daytona Turbo for a while. Always thought the X 1/9 was the perfect car except for the lack of horsepower. I almost sent my X 1/9 to Matt right after he put the information up about the first K20 swap. My main reservation, was with how much of the frame and firewall had to be cut from the X 1/9. I just couldn't bring myself to cut a perfectly good X 1/9 that much. I started doing research on the K series engines and then a by random chance I ended up with both the money and perfect X 1/9 for a swap. My 1985 X 1/9 got wrecked and I got a decent amount of money from the insurance. Posts about it is here http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/24163/

I decided to experiment with a K20 build and felt that I wouldn't feel too bad if I had to cut up my 1985 since it was almost on its way to the junkyard anyways. I also wanted to see if I could modify the K20 engine to fit in an X 1/9 rather than modify the X 1/9 to fit the engine.

So here is what I did:
First got a 2002 RSX type S donor car. The car ran great. Had lots of power and shifted through the gears smoothly. The car had 120,000 miles on it, but I have been told that the K20 engine is good for a lot more than that. I had my mechanic friend do a leak-down test and check for any fault codes on the computer and other than a valve cover gasket oil leak and a broken sensor, the engine and transmission where in great shape.



Took the engine transmission and wiring harness out. All as one unit. I did not detach the wiring harness or transmission during the entire build.


Bought the kit from Matt, installed the subframe, and had it welded.





I removed the subframe from the car and then removed the water pump, alternator, intake and exhaust manifolds from the K20 and bolted the subframe to the engine.



I then began test fitting the engine on the subframe into the X to see where it was absolutely necessary to cut. To my surprise the only place where my engine was hitting and absolutely needed to be cut was the drivers side wheel well, where the transmission housing was hitting. I didn't take a picture of the area, but if i remember to, I will when I remove the engine to paint the engine compartment. Basically the area where the indentation is for the X 1/9 transmission needs to be opened up to allow for the larger transmission. Instead of cutting the whole frame rail like the otehr K20 builds i saw online, I cut a very small section of the rectangular frame rail out and then bent the metal together making the frame rail more triangular than rectangular. I removed about 1.5 inches width x 8 inches length. I removed a little metal at a time and then test fitted over and over again until I had made enough room for the transmission. The clearance is extremely close, but so far after driving the car for about 3 weeks I haven't had any rubbing or knocking of the transmission against the frame. The engine fit pretty nicely within the engine bay of the X 1/9 with absolutely no cuts to the front frame or firewall. Only problem was, I wasn't going to get the water pump alternator or intake manifold back on without doing some modification to the engine bay. First thing I found is that you can delete the water pump on a K20 and put an electric water pump in its place. This not only saves space and weight, it reduces drag on the engine, so more power as well and it relocates and changes the alternator from the large heavy RSX alternator to a smaller alternator from the base civic. The civic alternator is smaller and closer to the engine block than the RSX alternator and it plugs right into the RSX wiring harness, no modification necessary. (its amazing what these Honda guys have all ready figured out for this engine for drag racing)




I had successfully reduced the amount of room I would need for the water pump, alternator and pulleys on the engine. I test fitted the engine and installed the water pump block off plate with the alternator on it and put the belt on the pulleys. The belt hit the corner of the engine bay, so I needed to make an indentation in the frame rail to allow for some clearance. I bent the metal rather than cutting it and was able to make about an inch and a half of clearance just bending it. This was enough to allow for the belt.

The picture is a bit dark, but you can kind of see where the alternator bracket is and the metal on the X 1/9 is bent in the top right hand corner.

Part II

So a list of things I did cut.
The engine mount on the passenger side of the car was cut off.
The bottom bracket for the radiator overflow tank was cut off (I am not sure this was completely necessary, but it did make it easier to get the transmission in)
Various small bolts that were sticking through the firewall.

Things I did not cut that usually are cut in a K20 build:
the firewall
Frame rail below the firewall
left and right side frame rails (except as noted for the transmission)
Rear trunk and exhaust area.
Rear engine mount (the top one for the dog bone mount)

The main issue with the K20 motor needing more room than an X 1/9 can provide is for the K20 intake manifold. The K20 intake manifold is huge compared to the Fiat one. The firewall on the X 1/9 is convex when looking at it from the rear of the car. This convex part of the firewall interferes with the K20 intake manifold. This is, in my opinion the main reason to cut the box out of the firewall. I looked into several different manifolds that were either smaller or curved upward. Several Individual throttle body intakes almost fit. There is also an individual throttle body intake that they use on Lotus Exige swaps that curves upward. Here are some of the measurements I took prior to any bending.





As you can see, I only had between 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 inches between the head and the firewall. Since I couldn't find an intake that would fit in such a small space, I designed one.



I sent this crude design to a fabricator that makes custom intakes for turbo applications. He was more than willing to make this for me, but he said that with the runners being as short as they were, that I would have very little low end torque and my power would probably not really start until 9,000 RPM. This is not the performance I was looking for. At the end of the day, i wasn't going to spend 2 grand on an intake that I wasn't sure would fit or work right, so I made my bends in my firewall to accommodate the stock intake. I bent the rear firewall and ended up with about 9 1/2 inches of clearance, which is just barely enough for the stock manifold.



About 1/2 inch of clearance to be exact. My firewall is now a bit concave where it used to be convex. However, I think that I could still fit a small emergency spare in my spare tire compartment.

Part III
Engine with the intake now fits in the engine bay. Time for some plumbing. With the electric water pump, i could have forgone a thermostat, but I decided it would be a good idea to have one. I used the Lancia thermostat that Matt has used on previous K20 conversions, but I did find that there are many other thermostats that will work just as good. I do not recommend the inline thermostat that K-tuned sells as it is a single action thermostat that completely inhibits water flow. This is bad for an engine as it can create hot spots. a dual action thermostat is the way to go. the plumbing was a bit complicated and I am still tweaking the system to allow maximum water flow. AS you can see in th epicture witht the electric water pump, there is a short rubber hose connecting the water pump to the thermostat. The thermostat is then connected to the hose exiting the head on the open when cold side of the thermostat. The open when hot side of the thermostat is connected to this T-shaped junction.



The black and green hose goes to the expansion tank return line. The other hose connects to the radiator out pipe.

The -AN line in the pic above (black with red/blue fitting) is the return line to the radiator. I found an adapter to go from -16 AN line to smooth rubber hose. I used the K-tuned upper coolant outlet instead of the stock RSX outlet, because it allows you to change the angle of the exit hose and can use -AN lines. This set up works well as the -AN line is much more rigid than regular rubber hose, so I don't have to worry too much about the line collapsing from bending.
Fuel lines where next.
Fuel pump bracket was modified for a lower profile.

Stock fuel pump, stock fuel filter. Used regular rubber hose to go from the fuel filter to the fuel rail.

The other side of the fuel rail has the fuel pressure regulator and the return line connects to the stock Fiat return line (fuel injected Fiats).
This part was pretty easy.

Next came the shift cable linkage. Inside the car, I had to cut the center tunnel to fit the stick shift assemble, but I only cut what was absolutely necessary, so I have overlap between the metal of the stick shift assembly and the center tunnel (about to the second screw from the bottom). I drilled holes in the tunnel and put the bracing bracket inside the tunnel instead of on top of the tunnel. The screws go through the metal of the tunnel and hold the Stick shift assembly secure. No welding was necessary.

On the transmission side I did a bit of frabrication. I cut the Acura RSX cables and drilled and tapped the end links to match the thread on the end of the cables Matt supplied me. I also cut the bracket off the RSX lines and used them to attach the lines to the RSX shift linkage. Top cable is the RSX cable, bottom is the cable supplied with the kit.

Cables modified.

It is also necessary to pull the cables further away from the linkage for them to work properly. I made an aluminum plate to accomplish this.

This is the mock up piece of aluminum. I forgot to take a pic of the final fabricated piece. It looks exactly the same only it is thicker and isn't missing a bolt.

Still more to come.
Hey bud, just got my swap kit from mwb, I’m getting ready to cut my engine bay but I really don’t want to cut a lot of metal out like they want you to do, anyway is there anyway you could share some pictures of you swap with me?
thank you
 
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