b16, 2 steps forward, 1.5 steps back.

You need to put an inlet/bleed in the heater hose as it bridges both sides of the system. The heater hose is also at the top of the system so it should be plumbed in so it can be close to there and as high as possible.

Using something such as this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Radiator-Ho...ash=item3ad68cdeef:g:TwIAAOSwu4BVkUth&vxp=mtr

It may be a bit of a hassle to fill the system but once done it will likely be fine. You will make good use of the bleed screw at the radiator.
 
Like has been said before, make sure all air is out of the system. You may need to crack open one of the big radiator hoses (like where it connects to the thermostat to make sure there's no air trapped there. It would be really unusual for the water pump impeller to come off though I suppose anything is possible...
 
Yeah. I think you are dead on. Going to have time Wednesday to play. If it isnt air, the thermostat is my next belief. Even though it is new it seems more possible than the water pumo having issues without leaking.

Odie
 
Update: routed the heater circuit to the expansion tank. No flow. Ugh. Thought about it and we took the return line off and pressurized the tank. Held 20 psi. Yeah. Double checked the heaterms valve and it was open meaning it is plugget up good. Bypassed the heater and looped it from the head to the expansion tank then expansion to the return. Success! There is flow! Now for the 1.5 steps back. After the antifreeze warmed up the thermostat opened. I could tell because when I squeezed the main hose next to the thermostat it was hot and it wasn't before. But...... it was not circulating in the main circuit. I opened the bleeder in the radiator and cold coolant dripped out. Not plugged as we can see fluid movement when we squeeze either hose.
That was it for the night. We are convinced it is air in that circu it too bu not sure how to get it out. Or it could be a weak water pump, but I have never heard of that. Checking on hondaswap to see if they have.

Odie
 
A thought comes to mind. Elevate the cap (park the car with the nose down) so the air moves toward the cap and escapes.

Saw something similar on a hydraulic system. (tow truck with the pump mounted high on the motor and the holding tank mounted under the crane boom) Just parking the truck with the nose in a ditch primed the system and everything worked well again.
 
Expansion tank should be connected to engine side of t/stat housing or engine side (return) of branch pipe so that filling is done through the expansion tank as expected.
 
What I currently have:
Bypass circuit: left as is. comes from intake to return tube ~2" from thermostat
Heater Circuit. out of head to top of expansion. Bottom of expansion to return tube ~.5 from thermostat (spring side)
Main circuit. From head to radiator to back of thermostat (or front, depends on how you look, the non spring side)

currently my head is spinning with a ton of ideas, wishing I had time right now to try them all. I am still thinking it is real close, with air in the main circuit. looking at putting a tee right before the thermostat to use as either a bleeding vent, or put a hose barb on it and hook up a hose to bleed it pushing water from that spot backwards to the radiator, back to the head, through the engine, back to the heater circuit and filling up the expansion tank that will have the cap off. Possibly leaving something in the mix with the beeder on the radiator.

I just want to drive my car :(
Odie
 
The top of the expansion is supposed to be only the vent from the t/stat output side - to vent any air in the system from the highest point back to the expansion tank. The lower hose is supposed to be the fill back into the system - during heat cycling where expansion is taking place, and for filling purposes.

It shouldn't be integrated into any other circuits.
 
I am game to try pretty much anything at this point. I was running it like Pauls because his appears to be working. so how are you suggesting I plumb it? I have 6 places on the engine. supply to radiator/return from radiator, Supply to heater/return from heater, Bypass from intake/Bypass to return. and I have the top and bottom of the expansion tank. let me know what you think needs to go where and I will test it.

Odie
 
autox19 said:
I am game to try pretty much anything at this point. I was running it like Pauls because his appears to be working. so how are you suggesting I plumb it? I have 6 places on the engine. supply to radiator/return from radiator, Supply to heater/return from heater, Bypass from intake/Bypass to return. and I have the top and bottom of the expansion tank. let me know what you think needs to go where and I will test it.

Odie
Click to expand...

Looking at Paul's schematic (3rd pic) - it appears to be as I described - tank feed (bottom fitting) attaches to t/stat housing, and vent (upper fitting) attaches to (hopefully) the highest point in the system to allow air to bleed out.

That wasn't how I interpreted your description - perhaps I misunderstood?

"Heater Circuit. out of head to top of expansion. Bottom of expansion to return tube ~.5 from thermostat (spring side)
 
how is it right now.

1. from head to radiator
2. from radiator to thermostat.
3. To top Expansion tank using the heater circuit. the heater core tested plugged with 20 psi, so we are going straight to the expansion tank
4. From bottom Expansion tank to return on back of thermostat. hot side when closed, shoots coolant right onto the spring.
5. is the bypass from the intake to the return. this is stock honda.
the res stars are where the stock bleeder points are. the one near the engine is actually on the nipple coming off the head rather than on a hose the the diagram make it look.

coolant3.JPG


odie
 
which I believe is what pauls is showing.

when the thermostat opens, 1. gets warmer next to the thermostat, but is cold by the time it gets to the pipes under the car. so I think I have an air pocket in the radiator circuit. when I open the bleed on the radiator I get cold coolant. dribbling out.

odie.
 
If that heater port the expansion tank is attached to is one of the highest points (like the bleeder port would be), then that makes sense. The larger lower expansion tank feed to the branch between t/stat & water pump seems appropriate, also. I still don't understand why the t/stat isn't on the feed side of the system (between head & rad) though. The way it's pictured (assuming flow arrows are accurate) indicates that it's relying on coolant from the rad to heat it, which of course ain't happening since there is no flow (based on your flow mapping) other than from pump into motor, back to return branch via bypass until the t/stat opens?? If in fact the coolant flow is reversed, then the pump is pulling hot coolant out the block/head & pushing it at the t/stat, which would make more sense....
 
ok, the pump gets its feed from the return tube that the bypass and heater return dump into. it pushes coolant through the blck and head then the flow goes; out to the heater circuit, out to the radiator circuit and out through the intake for the bypass. the Thermostat is opened by the warm coolant coming from the radiator circuit and the bypass circuit. that opens up the thermostat which is supposed to allow the radiator circuit to be complete and circulate.

As far as the highest feeding the expansion tank. Side view of the head (it was a quick find, so not the best) you see the 2 hose connections at the bottom? the small one near the middle is going to the heater. the large one to the left is the one going to the radiator this is NOT the place where the thermostat is. but you can see the bleed valve that is at the highest point. the hose for the expansion is slightly lower and the expansion tank is higher. than both, the input for the tank is about 6 inches higher.

coolant4.JPG



Odie
 
autox19 said:
the Thermostat is opened by the warm coolant coming from the radiator circuit and the bypass circuit. that opens up the thermostat which is supposed to allow the radiator circuit to be complete and circulate.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Hussein, that statement seems like a bit of a catch-22. The idea of the thermostat is to KEEP warm coolant from going to the radiator. Your diagram would make a lot more sense to me if there was a double-action thermostat on the short "5. BYPASS" circuit. That's the way my K20 is set up.

Pete
 
autox19 said:
I don't know. This is what the coolant hose diagram looks like.
View attachment 2328

Odie
Click to expand...

OK - so based on this pic, the neck on the head is the RETURN from the radiator, the neck on the T/stat housing shown on the block below would be the FEED to the radiator, otherwise it makes no sense.

EDIT - it would also appear that the heater would also be fed from the t/stat housing, the valve is on the returun side, which then goes back into the head.

"As far as the highest feeding the expansion tank." - to clarify - the highest point should the vent (smaller hose/fitting) to the expansion tank (upper/top fitting) the feed is the lower (larger) fitting :)

Any pics of the water pump & branch pipe in place?

If you could spin the pump with water in the motor (and empty t/stat housing), you could quickly determine which port the coolant flow exits the motor, however based on the diagram, I would have to assume the rad hose neck on the head is the return, not the feed.
 
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So, Mike, if you remove that t/stat housing, there is no passage into the block?

I understand that the branch pipe has to be the return, looking at the motor, that is the same configuration as a Volvo whiteblock. centrifugal draw, pushing from there into the block & head.

However, I would expect that coolant is passing from the block into the backside of the t/stat housing, heating the t/stat & allowing circulation of coolant from the pump, through the block/head, and back to the pump. Otherwise, how are they expecting the heating block/head coolant to circulate? Typical coolant flow through the t/stat matches what I'm saying - coolant flows from the spring side outwards, not the other way, so that would still mean the t/stat is the feed side & should be going to the top of the rad.

EDIT: nix that thought process- on yours coolant has to be returning to the t/stat, or it would be counter productive / conflict with the coolant path. So that would suggest a blockage in the housing/block sicne there has to be a means for coolant to return to the branch from the head&block besides the small hose going to the branch pipe.

The feed to the rad up top will be static until the t/stat opens, just like a closed heater circuit. Which still means coolant has to therefore circulate internally back to the branch pipe in back of the t/stat housing, I can't see another sensical path

Have you pulled that t/stat housing to see if it flows through the block?

EDIT again. Bottom line, coolant has to be able to return to the t/stat housing & branch pipe internally, or there is no circulation within the motor.

EDIT again. Looking online for B16 coolant pics, can't find anything complete & really accurate. Seems like it relies on that small hose coming off the head (through a intake passage) back to the t/stat to circulate head, and the heater feed below at back to circulate coolant from the block. Doesn't make sense as if the heat is off, then you have no block circulation beyond what is transferred out via the small head passage?? Can't make a clear mental picture here. :(

Sorry if I'm just adding to the confusion.
 
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I understand the part about the stat looking backwards, but after doing some research (google) I have found several that are that way allowing the flow to continue to flow to the return when open. Verified the flow from the head to the op of the expansion is correct because I can see coolant pouring in from it. I still backed the thought of the main circuit being backwards so I have done some more research to find a pic of a b16 in a honda and see if I can see where the coolant lines run. I found one that kinda shows (most are hidden by the dizzy) that the one from the head goes to the top of the radiator.
Engine Bay.jpg


still going with air being the issue. going to try bleeding with the nose up, followed by bleeding with the nose down. if that doesnt work, I am buying the vacuum coolant filler. that creates a vacuum then fills it from the vac. expensive, but my mechanic buddy does quite a few coolant related things and it would help him as well.

odie
 
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