b16, 2 steps forward, 1.5 steps back.

I was thinking that to test the circulation, if you just ran a rad hose in the bay & propped a spare rad with another hose going back to the t/stat, you would tell pretty quickly if circulation is occurring. That would quickly indicate if the problem lies outside the immediate circuit.
 
great idea! I know he just did a radiator replacement recently in a truck that we could use.

Odie
 
coolant4_LI.jpg
 
found a better pic of the hose routing. a guy on the honda site googled b16 hose replacement. came up with a perfect shot.
jhp.hosekit-b16-6pc2_d.jpg


so it looks like I have it routed correctly, and thanks to you guys I now have the expansion tank correct. so I think i am down to air pocket and/or weak water pump (which is not as likely) Going to try Hussein's suggestion after one more try on getting air out.
BTW, I am using hoses that go to the bottom of the radiator for both radiator hoses. when hooked up they both drop it down almost perfectly to the fiats tubes that go to the front.

thanks again!!! I WILL be driving this during this summer, even if I have to buy a horse to pull it

Odie
 
So I have been looking at this for a while. First, that is a lot of ports and hoses and people thought Fiats were complex cars.

I have never played with one of these cars so what I say could well be complete BS, but I have thought about it pretty carefully and I think I understand the general behavior of the system.

So we have the block, the head, the thermostat housing and the return pipe as the primary exits and returns for the system. We have two primary external elements, the radiator and its associated pressure cap and overflow and the vehicle's HVAC system. There are also two secondary engine mounted systems served with coolant, the oil cooler/heater and the intake system.

The water pump feeds coolant directly into the block. The block feeds coolant into the head and has one outlet into the oil heater/cooler besides the distribution into the head.

The pump is fed by the coolant return pipe. The coolant return pipe has two returns along its length, one from the oil heater/cooler and one from the intake with a large feed from the thermostat housing at the end.

  • The coolant collected in the return pipe which comes from a variety of sources, the liquid returned directly into the pipe itself is cooled by the intake manifold and the oil cooler/heater. Eventually these two sources get to a fairly steady state of temperature as the engine reaches operating temperature.
  • The end of the coolant return pipe is fed by the thermostat housing and has the greatest temperature variation of the coolant due to the variety of sources feeding into the thermostat housing.
The thermostat housing has four returns into it, the return from the radiator on the end of it and three returns into the vicinity of the thermostat's spring and regulation wax housing. The returns in the vicinity of the thermostat's wax housing are the means of introducing the heated water to cause the thermostat to open.
  • Starting nearest the thermostat is a return from the head, the primary bypass, this delivers hot water directly from the head onto the wax capsule of the thermostat and has the largest effect on its operation.
  • Next to it is the heater return line, this line either delivers no flow if the heater is off and therefore no effect on the thermostat or it delivers cooled water to dilute the hot water from the main bypass and causes the thermostat to open more slowly.
  • Lastly there is the bypass from the head directly that ensures there is flow at all times from the firthest part of the head right next to the heads outlet to the radiator.
  • The largest return into the thermostat housing is the radiator return directly onto the base opening of the thermostat body and flow is enabled when the thermostat opens.
The head has five feed ports from it that feed two bypasses, the heater core, the intake system and the largest outlet, the radiator. It also has an air bleed port.
  • The largest outlet goes to the radiator. The radiator has the filler with pressure cap and overflow bottle, the hot feed from the engine and the cooled return to the thermostat housing.
  • The next largest outlet is the primary bypass that feeds directly onto the thermostat in the thermostat housing.
  • The other two outlets are the same size. One feeds the intake system and returns the coolant into the main return tube to the water pump.
  • The other outlet feeds hot water from the hottest end of the cylinder head into the thermostat housing just beyond the heater return.
I won't delve further into the intake or the oil heater/cooler system as they don't have much effect on the thermostatic system.

So how does it work?

When cold, there are two direct high speed flows from the head into the thermostat housing and directly onto the thermostat, which as the engine heats up causes the thermostat to open. The thermostat opening allows coolant from the radiator to flow back into the engine and causes significant flow (at a slower rate) into the return tube to the water pump. This flow is tempered by the hot bypasses from the head, however due to their constrained diameter, they deliver much lower flow once the thermostat is open and have less effect until the thermostat starts to close due to the cold return coolant effecting the thermostat.


So how should the system be plumbed to the X's existing system. This is my view and how I would start working towards a solution:
  • Connect all the hoses in the standard Honda way to and from all of the outlets and inlets of the standard system.
  • Connect the primary exit from the head to the the existing X pipe to the radiator.
  • Connect the thermostat housing return to the the existing X returnpipe from the radiator.
  • Connect the head heater outlet to the heater to the existing X heater supply
  • Connect the heater return hose from the X to the thermostat housing's existing heater return.
This all makes sense and is pretty simple. So how do you fill the system and manage the pressure cap which on an X is part of the expansion tank?

On a Honda the radiator has a pressure cap and a non pressurized expansion tank that captures expelled coolant and also allows that coolant to go back into the system. On an X we have a tank with some expansion space with an air volume capped by a pressure cap and an overflow that just loses coolant when the system exceeds its volume or pressure.

You could omit the X expansion tank which has a primary larger hose and a smaller return pipe. I don't think deleting this is a good idea as all coolant expands and contracts so eventually without the tank something will burst. So it needs to be kept.


Where in the system should the expansion tank go?

  • I would plumb it into the outlet from the head that leads to the radiator and the smaller diameter return I would plug or possibly plumb a small line into the return line from the radiator. Why? This is the part of the system which will see the largest amount of expansion and contraction as well as the greatest heat variation. I am tempted to suggest that one shouldn't use the small return line into the expansion tank. If you don't use the small return line I would add a fill point as I previously suggested on the heater outlet from the head to fill both sides of the system.

  • Alternatively I would plumb the expansion tank into the main outlet from the head to the large hose inlet to the expansion tank and I would then plumb the small line of the expansion tank into the return line of the heater return line close to the thermostat housing. This ensures that there is pressure relief from the high temperature side and a return from the low temperature side of the system which goes to the highest point (just below the cap of the expansion tanks pressure cap) that could allow trapped air in the thermostat housing to escape into the expansion tank as the system is filled.

I would tend to do the latter alternative (main head outlet to the larger expansion tank inlet and a hose to the heater return to the small return on the expansion tank) rather than the former. I think it would be the closest to the way the X system currently works and would allow the system to self regulate the trapped air issues.

This is my understanding, you may see this differently. I hope it helps.

Karl​
 
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so basically, back to how I had it originally? (your first suggestion)

the second suggestion, if you are saying put a tee into the the return line of the water heater, then would the fact it is a pressurized system keep the heater return from just dumping into the tank? also, would that same pressurized/sealed system keep it from acting as a venturi and just pull air from the expansion tank into the heater circuit?

By the way, you are REAL REAL close on the hoses. seeing the last pic I posted, as well as the parts diagram, the heater circuit appears to be the one that dumps straight on the wax whole the bypass is right next to it.

brilliant work.
if i can get this dang thing on the road, Grand rapids will be one of my first "long" trips. I am actually in Dorr right now, and wayland for a softball tourny tomorrow


Odie
 
My suggestion is to put tees into the main feed to the radiator and the heater return line. The tees would be small diameter on the feeds to the expansion tank to not substantially affect flow to or from the the other components hoses. I would not change any of the standard hoses that Honda has going to the various ports on the head and the coolant return log/thermostat housing.

The expansion tank should live on the edge of the system just as the pressure cap on the complete Honda system is at the far end of the system, being part of the radiator.

Upon watching Paul's video I would change my recommendation, flipping my suggestion to the larger supply line of the expansion tank to the tee on the heater return line and the smaller diameter line on the side of the exansion tank to the main line tee to the radiator. His system works, I would just not use any of the standard ports to feed the tank.

The tee into the heater return line is on the sucking side of the system whereas the tee into the base of the expansion tank is on the pushing, flow side. Paul's approach does make the most sense the more I think about it.

If you look very carefully at the diagram on the previous page, you will see that the port nearest the thermostat is for the bypass from the head not the heater return. The little lines and arrows are hard to parse out but I am pretty sure it is the case.

IMG_1256.JPG


I still think a fill on the end of the head would be worth looking into, the image below is for the B series engines and would make filling the system much easier and provide a high point in the system to collect air. If the cap on top of this was just a sealing cap, the small hose off the side would feed the expansion tank smaller hose which is in the air gap section of the expansion tank thus bleeding off any air on that side of the engine. This would get rid of the tee in the main supply line obviously.

speedfactory.fillneck2_d.jpg
 
$150 eeeeps!!!!!!! how about
902-305-005.jpg


$11 at oriely's....

found another that the neck went up, but that again was 150.

Odie
 
another thought, moroso makes a small expansion tank that I could tee off the main circuit so I would have 2 expansion tanks. one off the heater, the other smaller off the main. I would tee it off the near the thermostat. With the expansion tank normal fill levels between the tanks being the same.

Odie
 
another thought, moroso makes a small expansion tank that I could tee off the main circuit so I would have 2 expansion tanks. one off the heater, the other smaller off the main. I would tee it off the near the thermostat. With the expansion tank normal fill levels between the tanks being the same.

Odie
I think you only need one, things are crowded enough, besides, where do all the hoses go?
 
Karl is spot on (as far as my understanding of the Honda system) with his explanation. His positioning of the expansion tank also makes sense to me and will probably de-aerate better than my system.

Nice video, thank you for taking the time to post it. Nothing clarifies things like pictures and videos.
 
Karl is spot on (as far as my understanding of the Honda system) with his explanation. His positioning of the expansion tank also makes sense to me and will probably de-aerate better than my system.


Awesome video documentation :)
Hopefully that fluid on the return hoses to the t/stat housing is just rainwater? Otherwise you have something leaking back there...
How did you damage your wrist / arm?
 
Awesome video documentation :)
Hopefully that fluid on the return hoses to the t/stat housing is just rainwater? Otherwise you have something leaking back there...
How did you damage your wrist / arm?

Thanks :)
I had quickly rinsed the engine off before I made the video, it was really dusty and quite unpresentable after my recent roadtrip. No leaks :D

I broke my radius and ulna when I landed badly after a defensive layout playing Ultimate. Got the intercept, but not really worth it to be honest :rolleyes:
 
Update: k sport filler neck should be here Monday or Tuesday. Also bought an in line temp sender and put a bleeder valve in to put near the thermostat on the return line.

I have 2 kids graduating high school this year. Different schools so 2 graduations, 2 open houses, 2 getting things set for college. One of them finishing up her last year of softball. So I haven't had time to do anything with it. Which really sucks. Hopefully will have news later this week.

Odie
 
Update: k sport filler neck should be here Monday or Tuesday. Also bought an in line temp sender and put a bleeder valve in to put near the thermostat on the return line.

I have 2 kids graduating high school this year. Different schools so 2 graduations, 2 open houses, 2 getting things set for college. One of them finishing up her last year of softball. So I haven't had time to do anything with it. Which really sucks. Hopefully will have news later this week.

Odie

No that doesn't suck, that is the step into the next phase of your life. Paying for college :) Congrats on having two graduates, definitely something to celebrate. Family first over toys.
 
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