My Car So Far...
- Thread starter Ben Louis
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Ben Louis
True Classic
I was wondering what you meant still thinking about the shims but now I see. I have some anti sieze paste and will make sure to pull the set screws and use it. Good catch!
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
Thanks. I enjoy this stuff. Apparently I have no life. 
As noted the shims are there to account for manufacturing tolerances and bushing positions. They are not used for alignment. Replacing the bushings will render the previous shim positions obsolete as its not likely that the replacements are of identical length or installed in the exact position. Also, I have never found a reason to have the shims in varying thickness unless it makes installation easier at the factory.
I think I posted this a long time ago but I couldn't find it. The process is pretty simple. With the car on jack stands install the control arm (no shims) with just the bolt in position (no nut). Place a stand under the end of the control arm so it is near normal ride height (with the ball joint about the same height as the inner pivots). Move the arm through its range of motion to ensure its not binding at the normal ride height position.
Center the rear pivot between the body mounts and check the forward pivot to see if it is similarly positioned (it is likely biased to one end or the other). Now adjust the position of the arm fore/aft to equalize the bushing locations to have both as close to the center as possible. With the arm now centered use a dial caliper to measure the gap between each side of the bushing at the rear pivot. Or you can just assemble a stack of shims and try to fit them into the gap until you find a stack height that fits.
With two stacks of shims for the rear bushing ready, pull the bolt and insert a stack on the rear most side of the bushing, insert the bolt to about half depth and repeat for the other side of the bushing. With the bolt in place check the rear control arm pivot for axial movement (movement along the axis of the bolt or simply 'fore/aft'). It should be snug but not tight. Repeat the procedure for the front pivot. Once both pivots are shimmed on both sides again check each control arm pivot for axial movement. Assuming they are good remove the jack stand and check the control arm for range of motion. It should move the same as before the shims were installed.
Finally; replace the stand under the ball joint to position the control arm at ride height and torque the pivot bolts to spec.
Note: I put a light coating of anti-seize on the pivot bolt and all of the shims. This will keep them from seizing in the bushings. I had to use a sawzall to cut a pivot bolt to get a control arm out once. Never again. And I have seen the shims get rusty and chewed up.
Hope this helps.
As noted the shims are there to account for manufacturing tolerances and bushing positions. They are not used for alignment. Replacing the bushings will render the previous shim positions obsolete as its not likely that the replacements are of identical length or installed in the exact position. Also, I have never found a reason to have the shims in varying thickness unless it makes installation easier at the factory.
I think I posted this a long time ago but I couldn't find it. The process is pretty simple. With the car on jack stands install the control arm (no shims) with just the bolt in position (no nut). Place a stand under the end of the control arm so it is near normal ride height (with the ball joint about the same height as the inner pivots). Move the arm through its range of motion to ensure its not binding at the normal ride height position.
Center the rear pivot between the body mounts and check the forward pivot to see if it is similarly positioned (it is likely biased to one end or the other). Now adjust the position of the arm fore/aft to equalize the bushing locations to have both as close to the center as possible. With the arm now centered use a dial caliper to measure the gap between each side of the bushing at the rear pivot. Or you can just assemble a stack of shims and try to fit them into the gap until you find a stack height that fits.
With two stacks of shims for the rear bushing ready, pull the bolt and insert a stack on the rear most side of the bushing, insert the bolt to about half depth and repeat for the other side of the bushing. With the bolt in place check the rear control arm pivot for axial movement (movement along the axis of the bolt or simply 'fore/aft'). It should be snug but not tight. Repeat the procedure for the front pivot. Once both pivots are shimmed on both sides again check each control arm pivot for axial movement. Assuming they are good remove the jack stand and check the control arm for range of motion. It should move the same as before the shims were installed.
Finally; replace the stand under the ball joint to position the control arm at ride height and torque the pivot bolts to spec.
Note: I put a light coating of anti-seize on the pivot bolt and all of the shims. This will keep them from seizing in the bushings. I had to use a sawzall to cut a pivot bolt to get a control arm out once. Never again. And I have seen the shims get rusty and chewed up.
Hope this helps.
Ben Louis
True Classic
Got both sides mounted (just tight enough to hold things steady) with nice new nylocks and bolts where needed. Most of the bolts were surprisingly non corroded and judging by a few other clues I think they had been out and replaced before. I trusted the info that the shims are to take up the play in the mounts and used a feeler gauge with the bolts tightened just a teeny bit tight to the mounts and shimed accordingly. One side was exactly as I pulled it but the other was waay off. That side was what made me look into the shim placement in the first place because it just seemed weird. Now Im just waiting to start and finish the front so that I can drop the car and torque everything at the same time.
Ben Louis
True Classic
Yay I did it mostly right. I will prob go back and check centering a bit better. I kept it in mind while doing all this so it should be close but its still loose so its worth the time. I used a high quality poly lube on all parts per manufacturer recomendations, they recommended it on the bolts as well.
Yes for now the poly stays. But I will change to Oem at first best opportunity
Yes for now the poly stays. But I will change to Oem at first best opportunity
Ben Louis
True Classic
As I was working the arm just as Steve described to check for smoothness I kept getting this feeling of rub and couldnt figure it out. Then I realized that the toe adjustment lock collar must have worked its way down over the years and was contacting the arm
So I fixed it and everything was smooth. Although Steve I do see your point about the poly bushes they do bind a tiny bit at extreme throw which Im sure is tenfold when under load.
So I fixed it and everything was smooth. Although Steve I do see your point about the poly bushes they do bind a tiny bit at extreme throw which Im sure is tenfold when under load.
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
Cool. Glad it worked out.
Also, not sure I made it clear; be sure you torque the pivot bolts with the arm at normal ride height. Not at full droop.
Also, not sure I made it clear; be sure you torque the pivot bolts with the arm at normal ride height. Not at full droop.
Ben Louis
True Classic
Ahh yes you can see the jack stand to the left. This was for picture purposes only but I had it under the hub at ride hight while working on the shims. Hope the hub works or is under the ball joint better?
Just to clarify further as I have not done a final spec torque. So I dont need to load the arm when torquing? Just put it at ride height? If so Im glad to hear as this is much easier than dropping the car and getting 2 people to sit in it for everything else that needs torquing. (Im only talking about control arm pivots here)
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
No need to torque the pivot bolts with the car loaded. Ride height on jack stands is fine.
There should be no "load" on the bushings with the car sitting static on the ground. Other than the normal rotational loading from the control arm's position.
There should be no "load" on the bushings with the car sitting static on the ground. Other than the normal rotational loading from the control arm's position.
lookforjoe
True Classic
Apologies if I’m staying the obvious. The centering-arm-before-torque is SOP for any bushed pivot, so do the same for the front control arms when you get there - or revisit if you already were & didn’t follow that procedure. The intention is to make sure the bushing twists uniformly in both directions of its travel range.
Ben Louis
True Classic
It may be obvious but as Ive said several times, this car is unlike most vehichles that Ive worked on because Ive learned from many areas of the car that almost nothing was done right so Im always left questioning and in need of affirmation (and good technique too Im always learning) from people who have done it the right way. Case in point was the state of the shims on the right rear. I think someone just stuffed as many as would fit to make up for the crumbling bush but they only put shims (like 4-5) on one side, not even close to centered. Thats what brought this whole thing up, a sneaking suspision that putting things back the way they were was the wrong move. Point being that at times I really dont know, sometimes theres translation issues, sometimes I have to play dumb, and sometimes I am dumb so thanks!
Steve Hoelscher
True Classic
No apologies necessary. To clarify (for those who may not know how the OE bushing is intended to work, the bushing is designed to twist with the control arm movement. Specifically: the inner steel sleeve is clamped into place by torquing the pivot bolt. The rubber insert is bonded to it as well as bonded to the outer sleeve that is pressed into the control arm bore. So the bushing doesn't rotate like a bearing but instead the rubber between the inner and outer sleeves winds up, much like a rubber spring, as the control arm moves. The control arm is virtually spring loaded into position. So the static ride height should be the position in which it is torqued and thus centered in its range of motion.
Its also worth noting that the above does _not_ apply to the poly bushing. The poly bushing can't wind up like the rubber bushing. Its far to stiff. Thus it is intended to rotate on the inner sleeve, more like a bearing.
In either application it is imperative that the pivot bolt be properly torqued to insure the inner sleeve in clamped into position and can't be forced to rotate with the bushing. To do so would wear out the shims and open up the clearances and cause radial motion of the joint. Basically the wheel would move fore/aft with torque.
Ben Louis
True Classic
Ok so I finally got the rear suspension together and Im satisfied with the shims and such. So now Im building up the CV joints for re-instal. I believe it was Dr.Jeff who noted in a previous pic that I had the wrong bolts so I ordered the right set. In another thread there was talk about safety wiring these bolts. After hearing Steve’s input on torque and thread lock being enough and drilling 6 bolts already Ive decided it might not be worth the effort to do all 24 which is a lot of work. But if after some miles they do loosen at all then I will pull them and safety wire
I also tore down both front corners, assessed and have parts on order
I also tore down both front corners, assessed and have parts on order
Ben Louis
True Classic
It was a late nite mostly because I was experimenting. Although I had marked the CV positions before I took it apart I tried several orientations and what I can say is that when its wrong its rather obvious as it binds the middle piece badly to where it wont move at all. Conversely when things are right it feels like it should. One more tip that I figured out while messing around is that you can put the balls in individualy, just rotate the cage out a little and put them in one by one. Way easier than trying to drop it all in at once. Not quite finished but good progress. Its grease packed but waiting for bands to be put on before going on the car although I suppose I could do that with it installed but Im tired
Ulix
True Classic
Ben, is the shrinkwrapped CV joint new?
It is assembled in a way that was described as being wrong in another thread.
It should be oriented so that the two arrows point towards each other (wide spacing between ball races on inner should face narrow spacing on outer):
I have verified this on a new cv joint that I just installed, it was assembled in this way.
Edit: compare to last pic in this post: https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/cv-joint-bolts.34458/#post-294077
I am very interested in this matter because I had a new CV joint fail after about 100 mls in such a way that the bearing cage and the balls slipped out between the inner and the outer towards the boot.
I tried to get the new joint to do the same, but could not push the cage and balls out in this way. So I am thinking that maybe the other joint was assembled in the wrong way?
It is assembled in a way that was described as being wrong in another thread.
It should be oriented so that the two arrows point towards each other (wide spacing between ball races on inner should face narrow spacing on outer):
I have verified this on a new cv joint that I just installed, it was assembled in this way.
Edit: compare to last pic in this post: https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/cv-joint-bolts.34458/#post-294077
I am very interested in this matter because I had a new CV joint fail after about 100 mls in such a way that the bearing cage and the balls slipped out between the inner and the outer towards the boot.
I tried to get the new joint to do the same, but could not push the cage and balls out in this way. So I am thinking that maybe the other joint was assembled in the wrong way?
Ben Louis
True Classic
It wasnt a ‘new’ joint but a good used one. And yes it was shipped in the wrong orientation. After playing around I was able to get it right. You are correct that the wide should face the small outer. Like I said I experimented with various orientations and when you put wide to wide it totally locks up the center piece.
Ben Louis
True Classic
I had highlighted some landmarks on the CV parts before but I think now is a great time to expand on that. You should always mark them as they came out! If it lasted 40K miles it is probably the right way and wear patterns matter. But, if you forget to or have received a new CV then you must check it anyways. As has been brought up they are often shipped without proper installation. When I reference how things are facing it is only as I pulled them from my car. For me all 4 were in the same exact orientation so I take it as a good guideline (maybe others can confirm if it matches theirs). The parts appear symmetrical but they are not. However they are very close so landmarks ie differences are a bit hard to spot.
This is the inner most piece, notice on one side there is a raised 'collar' (some might call it a flange) where on the other there is not. The 'collar' faces away from the snap ring toward the boot and the special washer rests flat side to the collar.
We'll call this piece the bearing 'cage'. On one side there is a single wider machined downward angle, or bevel while on the other side there are two machined bevels kind of in a stepped fashion. For me the single angle faced away from the snap ring on the same side as the 'collar' mentioned above.
Lastly here is the outer casting. The machined line should be facing the stub shaft flange opposite from the boot and the same side as the snap ring.
** Again this is how mine were oriented which is no guarantee that it is the right way. I would greatly appreciate some input from others and am open to edits which make sure to get it right.
This is the inner most piece, notice on one side there is a raised 'collar' (some might call it a flange) where on the other there is not. The 'collar' faces away from the snap ring toward the boot and the special washer rests flat side to the collar.
We'll call this piece the bearing 'cage'. On one side there is a single wider machined downward angle, or bevel while on the other side there are two machined bevels kind of in a stepped fashion. For me the single angle faced away from the snap ring on the same side as the 'collar' mentioned above.
Lastly here is the outer casting. The machined line should be facing the stub shaft flange opposite from the boot and the same side as the snap ring.
** Again this is how mine were oriented which is no guarantee that it is the right way. I would greatly appreciate some input from others and am open to edits which make sure to get it right.
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Ben Louis
True Classic
Finally got the front suspension all cleaned up and painted. The ‘cups’ are clearcoated. Im continuing with poly again because I already bought the kit plus the original control arm bushes cant be replaced without replacing the whole arm which I cant afford right now. The poly ones are two piece and push right in which is a huge benefit. Also as a note the front poly is quite soft especially compared to the rear. Although with the rears I deff noticed what Steve was talking about, after being torqued I didnt notice any bind whatsoever in the front, which isnt to say its not there. I just cant feel any.
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Ben Louis
True Classic
I couldnt find a good source for the plastic inserts but after calling two vendors I was given basically the same answer/solution. The answer is to use a simple fuel hose of the right size cut to take up the space like this.
Admittedly its not perfect but I was told this is actually a decent setup and has been used with success in X race cars which are pushed very hard. Im told the only real downside is mileage life. They must be replaced every 1000 miles or so. Well see how they hold up.
Admittedly its not perfect but I was told this is actually a decent setup and has been used with success in X race cars which are pushed very hard. Im told the only real downside is mileage life. They must be replaced every 1000 miles or so. Well see how they hold up.